http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Perhaps one should have utilized the "plural" version. IE: Cats


Cat#1


A curious cat just may wonder:

Although the actual drawing shows only two lines to two impact points at the 175 foot slope distance and the 265 foot slope distance, one should be most curious as to exactly why Frazier's drawing also has calculations for "lead" and "time of flight" to the 300 foot distance.

Especially since:

Slope distance to the Altgens impact point/aka true third shot impact point, as determined by the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, was 294 feet, whereas the Z313 impact slope distance was 267 feet.

One may also wonder exactly why Eisenberg never asked Frazier anything relative to this "300" foot distance, considering that Eisenberg provided all of the information/data to Frazier in order that this little gem could be made.

Cat#2


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm


Most should recall that Z313 was located at survey stationing 4+65.3, which was 465.3 feet from a control station established back up in the center of the Elm St./Houston St. intersection.


As well as the fact that Z313 was at street elevation 418.48.

Which merely serves to indicate that the 265' distance is as relates to Z313.

Now! If one will look closely at the Frazier drawing of that information provided to him by Melvin Eisenberg, they will find that Frazer wrote that the vehicle traversed 90 feet in 5.5 seconds, for a speed of 16.3 feet per second. (it actually comes to 16.363636 feet per second)
Which ultimately comes to 11.157 mph.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Mr. EISENBERG - And that table also shows leads at other car speeds?
Mr. FRAZIER - This table I could calculate them--it only shows miles per hour translated into feet per second.
Mr. EISENBERG - I mean, does it show various miles per hour?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; it shows miles per hour in feet per second.
Mr. EISENBERG - Without going into detail at this time, may I have permission to introduce this table into evidence?
Mr. McCLOY - It may be admitted.
Mr. EISENBERG - This will be Commission Exhibit 560.

(The item identified as Commission Exhibit No. 560 was received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG - Now, Mr. Frazier, in the construction of this table and also in your last tests for rapid fire for this rifle, you used a five-and-a-half second figure as a factor in your calculations, and in your attempt at rapid fire accuracy placements. Can you give us the source of that figure?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. You were the source of it, based on examination, as I understood it, of a movie taken at the scene, and measurements taken at the scene. However, I have no knowledge of the actual time.
Mr. EISENBERG - For the record, I just wanted to establish that this is a source that was supplied by the Commission and which is tentative, and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the FBI; is that correct?
Mr. FRAZIER - I hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what the time actually was.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.
And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and third shots was 5 1/2 seconds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me correct you if I may Mr. Eisenberg!


"that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and second shots was 5 1/2 seconds."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevertheless, the "Eisenberg" info gives us several baselines from which to work, when one has all of the other pertinent information.

First off, lets take the "90" feet between shots.

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The time the speed of the moving object was calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles per hour.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. FRAZIER - No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the ground, with an assumed 2- foot height in addition to accommodate the height of the rifle above the possible. the possible height of the rifle above the window sill.
The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

???????????????????--So! What Next?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm


Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the three targets in consecutive order?
Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I would think that perhaps Mr. Eisenberg can now get in the same boat with Shaneyfelt!

Personally, I would like for all of them to be in the same boat, when it SINKS!


As for me, I recall nothing in regards to Frazier having been given anything in regards to a "240" foot slope distance shot.
Either for his drawing and/or his time of flight computations.

It would appear that "300" feet has now decided to move back up Elm St. away from James Altgens position and locate itself some 20+ feet prior to the Z313 impact.

Which of course is also the location in which the WC also "moved" James Altgens to on their "paperwork location".


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm


Mr. LIEBELER - Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you at No. 3 on that picture.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol16_0487a.htm


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK Shaneyfelt!

You and Eisenberg need to move over and make room for another one in the boat!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But then again, I would assume that not unlike some "golden parachute", you also have a relatively good life jacket as well!


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer

VERNON TER., 6125-Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt to James H. and Jennifer O. Rooney, $1.4 million.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And all along I was under the impression that FBI Agents were underpaid!

VERNON TER., 6125-Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt to James H. and Jennifer O. Rooney, $1.4 million.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And all along I was under the impression that FBI Agents were underpaid!


Before we move back to "math counts"!


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film----
Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?

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Editor's Comment: Anyone have any doubts as to exactly who is the Captain of this boat and exactly who is "steering" it on command?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

---------------------------------
REALLY!

Personally, I would have guessed that it was one of the last frames just prior to James Altgens coming into view.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Commission Exhibit No. 887 is a picture of me that was taken on May 24, 1964. My location was at the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository that we have designated as our control point. I have the rifle that is the assassination rifle mounted on a tripod, and on the rifle is mounted an Arriflex 16-mm. motion picture camera, that is alined to take photographs through the telescopic sight.
This Arriflex motion picture camera is commonly known as a reflex camera in that as you view through the viewfinder a prism allows you to view directly through the lens system as you are taking your photographs so that as I took the photographs looking into the viewfinder I was also looking through the scope and seeing the actual image that was being recorded on the film.


http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol18_0050b.htm


*Provided again for that person who repeats what I say without verification as to exactly where I got that information.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SPECTER. And how did you number the frames?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. I numbered the frames on the Zapruder film beginning with No. 1 at the assassination portion of his

Somewhat "side-tracked" for a moment, but back on the rails!


5.5 seconds X 18.3 frames per second, = 100.65 elapsed frames.

Z312 (pre-impact) minus 101 frames (100.65 frames) = Z211
Z313 (impact) minus 101 frames = Z212

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z211.jpg

Anyone out there for more "coincidences"?
To include the WC acidentally forgetting to publish those frames of the film in this exact vicinity?

Working backwards like you are doing, the coincidence for damaging frames 208 - 211?

Probe, James DeEugenio

http://www.ctka.net/pr998-zfilm.html

The WC did not publish these "missing" frames of the film and it is reported that when this was later caught by researchers and brought out that the "official" answer was that their copy of the film received from Time/Life did not contain them and that is why it was an oversight.

However, if one checks their "composites" in which the altered survey data for Z208 was changed to Z210, they will find a composite for frame Z210 in which they demonstrate that they in fact had possession of at least this purportedly missing frame.

Tom

P.S. More "backwards" thinking to follow!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm



Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.
And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and third shots was 5 1/2 seconds.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Well! Personally, that pretty well wraps in my mind exactly who Melvin Eisenberg served his apprenticeship under!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. EISENBERG - For the record, these figures are approximations of the figures believed to be involved in the assassination.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?
Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the ground, with an assumed 2- foot height in addition to accommodate the height of the rifle above the possible. the possible height of the rifle above the window sill.
The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point.
Mr. EISENBERG - And you calculated the speed of the car by translating the figures on total time elapsed between first and third shots?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The time the speed of the moving object was calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles per hour.

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(265 minus 175 = 90 feet)

Yep! Unfortunately, slope distance for the trajectory of a bullet fired at a distance of 175 feet and slope distance for the trajectory of a bullet fired at 265 feet, don't compute to 90 feet of horizontal distance on the ground.
And especially when the ground (Elm St). itself is also sloping downwards.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce556.jpg


???????????????????????????????????certainly a quandary!

The below attachment may serve some purpose here.

And, just so that history gets things correct:


http://www.jfk-online.com/westshaw.html


BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: I notice in the center lane of that which you have depicted as Elm Street there are numerals close to small dots. Can you please tell the Gentlemen of the Jury what those numbers represent and what the dots represent?

A: The number represents the frame number of the Zapruder film. The dot represents the location of President Kennedy in the limousine when the particular frame was shot.

MR. DYMOND: We object to that unless this gentlemen can testify to that of his own knowledge, Your Honor. Unless he measured where the President was each time it would be based purely on hearsay.

MR. SCIAMBRA: I am asking the question.

BY MR. SCIAMBRA:
Q: Why did you place the dot in the frame number in a particular location which is shown on this plat?

A: On the instructions of the FBI agent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A...anguage=printer[/url]

VERNON TER., 6125-Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt to James H. and Jennifer O. Rooney, $1.4 million.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.jfk-online.com/shaneyfeltshaw.html

A: My name is Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, L-y-n-d-a-l, middle initial L, S-h-a-n-e-y-f-e-l-t.

Q: Where do you reside, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

A: I reside at 6125 Vernon Terrace, Alexandria, Virginia.

Q: By whom are you employed?

A: As a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

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In event that one wants good "public employees", they have to at least pay them a decent wage!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shaneyf2.htm

Mr. SHANEYFELT. At the very beginning, at 6 a.m., Mr. Rankin and Mr. Specter were in the sixth floor window of the Texas School Book Depository Building, which is the southeast corner of the building, sixth floor window, which was referred to as our control point, and where we had the master radio control for the other units.
Mr. Redlich was on the street with the car. At the car on the street were the occupants of the car, the Secret Service driver, Mr. Hickey, an agent from the FBI, who handled radio contact with control, Agents Anderton and Williams in the President's and Connally's seats, Mr. Gauthier and his aids, a surveyor, and I, were all on the ground in the vicinity of the car.



Mr. SHANEYFELT. For the first portion of them, I was at the car in the street, and at the position of Mr. Zapruder, the position from which he took his pictures.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr3.htm

Mr. SPECTER - What was your position during most of the time of those onsite tests?
Mr. FRAZIER - I was stationed at the window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the southeast corner of the building.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well! You should have taken up Zapruder's position. It apparently paid better!

Tom,

Remember the Drommer revision you warned me about, take a look at the red arrows which point to the non-matching curbline between Myer's work and the Drommer plat. The Houston St. curblines seem to match up fine, along with the wall, etc, etc.

In regards to the mis-matched curbline span:

Myer's has the limo in Towner traveling a distance of (yellow type) 40 ft.

I believe it is actually closer to(my RED LINES) 70 FT.

Part of the Revision??

thanks
chris

Chris;

Will get back to you on that!

Onward!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm

Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.
And third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and third shots was 5 1/2 seconds.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high.

Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?
Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In event no one has yet to catch on, the date of the above questioning of Frazier & Simmons, occured on March 31, 1964.

The date of the WC re-enactment was not until May 24, 1964.

The figures which Eisenberg gave to Frazier as well as to Simmons:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0139a.htm

Are "slope/gun to target" distances, not horizontal distances as Frazier (or someone) has on the drawing.

As well as the fact that they differ from those distances as determined by the SS & FBI, who did not take into consideration the actual height of the target above the pavement in computation of exact distances and angles.

Nevertheless, one may want to again look at the "Best Evidence" for the Z313 impact, which is in fact relatively accurate.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

"Line of Sight Dist. K-R" (Kennedy to Rifle): Z313----------265.3 feet.

(guess what?)

Not only that, but CE884 & Mr. West's relatively accurate work for the WC, will also give us additional information if one looks closely.

Z207 "Line of Sight Dist. K-R"-----------174.9 feet.


Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A quick refresher:


http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...7475entry137475

Additionally, the Eisenberg drawing information as provided to FBI Agent Frazier on 3/27/64 clearly demonstrates that the height difference of JFK's head above Elm St. as well as the rifle height in the window were items which had to be considered.

So, either Eisenberg was also a math major, or else someone who recognized that the SS & FBI surveys were lacking in this detail, was coaching him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wcsbt.htm



MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

Subject: Conference of April 14, 1964, to determine which
frames in the Zapruder movies show the impact of
the first and second bullets

---------------------------------------------------------

A screening was held of the Zapruder film and of slides
prepared by LIFE from the film. Each slide corresponded with a
separate frame of film, beginning with frame 171. The consensus of
the meeting was as follows:

(a) The President had been definitely hit by frames 224-225,
when he emerges from behind a sign with his hands clutching his
throat.

( The reaction shown in frames 224-225 may have started at
an earlier point - possibly as early as frame 199 (when there appears
to be some jerkiness in his movement) or, with a higher degree of
possibility, at frames 204-206 (where his right elbow appears to be
raised to an artificially high position).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(to be continued)

to be continued


http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...t=0&start=0

(A quick refresher for the 25+ year researcher and film reviewer)


but yet Purvis places the first shot beyond the witnesses statements.

Is that so?

Just in case you were either sleeping or in continuation of your "research" into the witness statements and photographic evidence, (or more likely suffer reading comprehension problems)

Purvis states that the first shot was fired at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Which by the way, Purvis got from the Time/Life Survey Plat, which, with original film and absolute first generation copy of the Z-film, Time/Life had Mr. Robert West survey personnel mark on Elm St. as well as was drawn up on the Time/Life Survey Plat.

Now, in event that you were an actual "researcher", somewhere in that 25 years down in a rabbit hole, it should have dawned on you the critical importance of the survey work in Dealy Plaza.
And, since Mr. West died only a few years back, it makes one wonder exactly what level of "researher" who actually lives in Dallas, would have never recognized the importance of his various works and made some effort to contact and speak with him.

Personally, I drove all the way from Ft. Stockton, TX to visit with him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but yet Purvis places the first shot beyond the witnesses statements.

Is that so?

Just in case you were either sleeping or in continuation of your "research" into the witness statements and photographic evidence, (or more likely suffer reading comprehension problems)

Purvis states that the first shot was fired at approximately Z204 to Z206.

Which by the way, Purvis got from the Time/Life Survey Plat, which, with original film and absolute first generation copy of the Z-film, Time/Life had Mr. Robert West survey personnel mark on Elm St. as well as was drawn up on the Time/Life Survey Plat.

Now, in event that you were an actual "researcher", somewhere in that 25 years down in a rabbit hole, it should have dawned on you the critical importance of the survey work in Dealy Plaza.
And, since Mr. West died only a few years back, it makes one wander exactly what level of "researher" who actuall lives in Dallas, would have never recognized the importance of his various works and made some effort to contact and speak with him.

Personally, I drove all the way from Ft. Stockton, TX to visit with him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm


Z313 stationing:------------------------------465.3 feet from control station, rife to Kennedy distance 265.3 feet.
Z207 stationing:------------------------------371.1 feet from control station, rifle to Kennedy distance 174.9 feet.

Distance between points:---------------------94.2 feet.

Elapsed frames of Z-film: 106

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm


Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The time the speed of the moving object was calculated on the basis of an assumed 5.5-second interval for a distance of 90 feet, which figures out mathematically to be 11.3 miles per hour.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Frazier most assuredly was not a "math major".


Mr. FRAZIER - The time of flight of the bullet of approximately 8/100ths of a second and, again, it was necessary to assume the time of flight of the bullet from the window to this first location of 175 feet is approximately 8/100ths of a second, which means a 2-foot lead on the target. That is, the target would move 2 feet in that interval of time, thereby necessitating shooting slightly ahead of the target to hit your aiming point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 feet of distance travelled in 8/100ths second = 0.25 feet travelled in 1/100th second.
Which thereafter computes to 25 feet of distance travelled in 100/100ths second. (aka one second).

25 feet per second comes to approximately 17.045 mph.

--------------------------------------

Mr. FRAZIER - 2 feet in front of the target, which would interpolate into a much lower actual elevation change.
Mr. EISENBERG - The elevation change would be 2 inches, is that it?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, no. It would be on the order of 6 to 8 inches.
Mr. EISENBERG - 6 to 8 inches?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG - What was your 2-inch figure?
Mr. FRAZIER - I don't recall.
Mr. EISENBERG - But it is 6 to 8 inches in elevation?


Mr. FRAZIER - Well it would be necessary to hold the crosshairs an estimated distance off the target, of say, 6 inches over the intended, target, so what when the shot was fired the crosshairs should be located about 6 inches over your target, and in the length of time that the bullet was in the air and the length of time the object was moving, the object would move into actually, the path of the bullet in approximately 1/10th to 13/100ths of a second.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I would have hoped that some of these "shooter's" who continously pop in and out of this forum would have taken the time and effort to have checked this one out!

------------------------------------------------------------------

8/100ths second of elapsed time at approximately 11.08 mph average speed (not Frazier's 11.3) = 16.26283 fps X 0.08 =
1.3 feet of lateral distance in bullet time of flight.

1.3 = .65% of 2-feet, which when applied to the 6 inch to 8 inch stated elevation lead, would come to 3.9 to 5.2 inches of lead were the target travelling in a flat plane away from the shooter.


Mr. FRAZIER - He would aim from 4 to 6 inches--approximately 2 inches, I would say, above the President's head, which would be actually 6 inches above his aiming point at the center of the head.


Therefore, if one applies all factors, in order to strike JFK in the rear center of the head, one would merely aim at the very top of the head and pull the trigger. (provided of course that the rifle/scope were zeroed for the approximate range)

And, I am not even a "Scout Sniper"!

But, I was a math major!

Chris;

I know nothing about the concrete curb.

However, in event that it has been torn out and replaced, this would of course be quite convenient.

Especially since, as I informed you long ago, within this section of curb is where Mr. West established his horizontal control station as well as having established his vertical/elevation control when actual elevation was carried in from the BM across over across Houston St.

So. the absolutely first survey control station established for the SS Survey work of 12/3 & 12/4 (Survey Plat dated 12/5/63),
has now been torn out in event that this curb has actually changed.

As to Towner's position, I have never "backplotted" it as I do not have the necessary frames of the film to do so.

And, unless there are at least sufficient points of alignment, then one can only "come close".

The entire radius of Houston onto Elm St. is too big to copy and get posted, and I only recently began to tape back together the WC Survey Plats which I long ago cut up just to get this far. (History forgive me!).

However, I can make some limited copies of portions which may serve to demonstrate what you are looking for.

If I ultimately make sufficient smaller size area copies with sufficient overlap, then they should be of benefit to you as Mr. West appears to have done some excellent work in completion of this area on the survey plat.

I will try something and post it back over on your topic, and we will see how it comes out.

Tom

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm


Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm


Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet,

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?
Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.


Repetitious, I am aware!

Nevertheless, one can always learn something new and revealing when sufficient points are correlated into their proper perspective.

Such as the fact that Melvin Eisenberg was giving Frazier & Simmons a first shot slant distance of 175 when absolutely no source had stated such a distance.

And, of course, "we" would not/should not have known exactly where a slope distance of 175 feet fell, until such time as the WC gave us the absolutely "corrected" distance from the rifle to Kennedy in which Z207 falls at a distance of 174.9 feet, with all elevation corrections due to the height of JFK above the pavement added in.

Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.


Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?



And, of course, "we" would not/should not have known exactly where a slope distance of 175 feet fell, until such time as the WC gave us the absolutely "corrected" distance from the rifle to Kennedy in which Z207 falls at a distance of 174.9 feet, with all elevation corrections due to the height of JFK above the pavement added in.


==================================================================


But we do, and that is why the Z207 position is most probably an accurate representation of JFK's actual position at Z207!


As stated long ago during discussion of the Survey Data, the Time/Life Survey was borderline "cartoon character" stuff as Charles Breneman actually did very little that was in fact accurate.

However, he did place a nail in Elm St. for the location of the shots fired, as determined by those Time/Life personnel who were looking at the film and positioning the survey personnel.

Therefore, on/in Elm St. there was an existing nail which had been placed there by Charles Breneman.

After Mr. West had completed the Time/Life Survey work in December 1963, as well as the virtual repeat of this work for the FBI in February 1964, he no doubt thought that he was relatively through with this episode in life.

However, Mr. West received a request to "re-do" the Time/Life work for the first shot, utilizing those items of information gained from the SS/FBI works which the inaccuracies of the Time/Life work had not corrected for.

As stated elsewhere, the Time/Life work of Breneman was severely lacking in that:

1. It utilized an incorrect elevation for the height of the sixth floor window.
2. It did not calculate angles beyone the "minute", whereas accuracy requires it to the "second".
3. It often did not even carry distances to the nearest 0.1 feet, and merely rounded off.
4. All angles and elevations were shot from a single common control station (which happened to be the impact location for the first shot fired), without benefit of alternative SCP's in which the person who drew the plat could cross-check against.
5. Breneman did not take into consideration elevation changes in Elm St.
6. Breneman did not take into consieration JFK's actual height above Elm St.

Nevertheless, the attached survey notes of Mr. West have never been seen BY ANYONE (other than of course Mr. West, who gave them to me).

At some point after the FBI work of 2/7/64, Mr. West received a request to "re-figure' the angle and distances for the Time/Life first shot impact, utilizing that accurate information gained from the SS & FBI works, which included the correct height of the sixth floor window; the corrections for the slope of Elm St;, and even something which neither the SS nor FBI had done.

Correct for the elevation of JFK's head above Elm St.

Mr. West's recollection of the exact nature of this request was vague, and only that it was after the FBI work and prior to the WC Work, and that he was informed that it was for the Time/Life Work, or that it was to verify something in regards to the Time/Life work.

Nevertheless, Mr. West took personnel back over into Dealey Plaza, found the nail which Charles Breneman had installed at the Time/Life determined location for shot#1, and thereafter made an accurate survey of this information, to include all those corrections within the SS & FBI works, as well as a correction for the height of JFK above the pavement.

ALL DONE PRIOR TO THE WC HAVING DONE THE EXACT SAME THING!

The provided drawing is the result of that work, and if one took basic trig, than they will find that the hypotenuse/slope distance for shot#1, as computed to the impact point as determined by the Time/Life Survey work of 11/25/63, was 174.80926 feet.

Now, if only I could recall where I have seen a distance which was similar!



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

Subject: Conference of April 14, 1964, to determine which
frames in the Zapruder movies show the impact of
the first and second bullets

---------------------------------------------------------

A screening was held of the Zapruder film and of slides
prepared by LIFE from the film. Each slide corresponded with a
separate frame of film, beginning with frame 171. The consensus of
the meeting was as follows:

(a) The President had been definitely hit by frames 224-225,
when he emerges from behind a sign with his hands clutching his
throat.

( The reaction shown in frames 224-225 may have started at
an earlier point - possibly as early as frame 199 (when there appears
to be some jerkiness in his movement) or, with a higher degree of
possibility, at frames 204-206 (where his right elbow appears to be
raised to an artificially high position).
----------------------------------------------------------------------


A truly sad state of affairs when someone unavoidably tells the truths, yet those listening are so deep in the rabbit holes that they do not even hear.



Hey BM! Learning anything in regards to proper research protocal????????????????

Have you figured out yet that the "Altgens" re-enactment photo was not taken from the same location as James Altgens was actually standing?

Wanna know why?

http://www.jfklancer.com/History-Z.html

May 12: National Archives acknowledges receipt of 323 Zapruder frame "color transparencies" (slides) and the "first and second generation copies" of the film from Time Incorporated, available for viewing only on the premises of the National Archives. (Archives Change of Holdings Report) The slides in the original set were made by Time-LIFE. The set included frames 164 through 483, except for the missing frame 349.

---------------------------------------
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.
--------------------------------------



My name is Tom Purvis, not suprisingly, I refer to myself as a JFK assassination researcher.
It took me all of about 10 to 15 seconds of looking at the WC re-enactment photo of the James Altgens photo, to recognize that the re-enactment photo was not taken from the same alignment position as James Altgens was actually standing.
And, I do not claim any great expertise in photo examination.

It took several hours of reading/research/coupled with reading comprehension, to determine that many of the witness statements accurately reported that the shot to the head of JFk at Z313 was in fact the second shot fired, as well as finding other witnesses who not only told where the Presidential Limo/JFK was located at the time of the third shot, but also of having observed this shot strike JFK as well.

It actually took about 40-hours of reading research to resolve exactly how CE399 came to exist. However, not unlike the Altgens issue, it took all of 10 seconds to recognized that a portion of the copper jacket at the base of the bullet was now missing as well as recognition that it was intentionally removed by some mechanical means.

Personally, I have never been recognized by the "Mary Ferrell" award/foundation, although my long ago written chapter on the altered WC survey data as well as the "VEHICLE SPEED ANALYSIS" are now a part of their stored information.

I would further state that in even that were I to ever (however unlikely) be offered the "Mary Ferrell Award", that I would have to decline, as it would too closely associate me with some relatively well known wannabee's Scout Snipers from Marathon Station, as well as others who can seem to only profess to being a researcher into the facts of the JFK assassination.

Questions?

sure....

"...
ALL DONE PRIOR TO THE WC HAVING DONE THE EXACT SAME THING!

The provided drawing is the result of that work, and if one took basic trig, than they will find that the hypotenuse/slope distance for shot#1, as computed to the impact point as determined by the Time/Life Survey work of 11/25/63, was 174.80926 feet.

Now, if only I could recall where I have seen a distance which was similar!"

[...]

has your memory recalled where, Tom? (I'm sure Bill Miller is sitting at the edge of seat, too.)

Would this be close enough?

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0464b.htm

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TUESDAY; MARCH 31, 1964




http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr1.htm


Mr. EISENBERG - I am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on November 22d, and I would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: First, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, which is 60 feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired.
Second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was 175 feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was 265 feet.




http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about 30 feet high


Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?
Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.


http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm


Personally!

I always disliked a "cheater" who already had answers to the test before the test even came out.


The provided drawing is the result of that work, and if one took basic trig, than they will find that the hypotenuse/slope distance for shot#1, as computed to the impact point as determined by the Time/Life Survey work of 11/25/63, was 174.80926 feet.

great material, Tom....

great material, Tom....


You sweet-talking devil!

Let me check, as there may just be an additional "furry feline" left in the bottom of the sack which should also be yanked out!

Back to March 1964

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm


Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet, and these distances are slant ranges


Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?


Mr. SIMMONS. I stand corrected. These are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. The distances are very close, however.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

MEOW!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. A distance of 175 feet is the distance of the first shot to impact point of JFK as determined during the Time/Life Survey work utilizing the original/first generation copy of the Z-film.
The distance has been "corrected" from the erroneous information which Charles Breneman measured, as well as having taken into consideration the height of JFK above the pavement.
This impact position is virtually at Z207 and correlates with as shot fired in the Z204/Z206 time frame, which also correlates with the "jiggle/blur analysis", as well as correlation with the examination of the Zapruder film in regards to JFK's reaction.



----------------------------------------------
April 22, 1964

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

FROM: Melvin A. Eisenberg

Subject: Conference of April 14, 1964, to determine which
frames in the Zapruder movies show the impact of
the first and second bullets




( The reaction shown in frames 224-225 may have started at
an earlier point - possibly as early as frame 199 (when there appears
to be some jerkiness in his movement) or, with a higher degree of
possibility, at frames 204-206 (where his right elbow appears to be
raised to an artificially high position).

----------------------------------------------------

3. The distance of 265 feet is the "corrected" slant distance of the Z313 headshot, with the "elevation" of JFK's head above the pavement added into the equation.
This true slant distance was not officially determined until the WC work in May 1964.
However, with the relatively accurate SS & FBI survey information, all that one has to do would be to add in the height of target (JFK's head above pavement), and easily calculate this figure.

2. The "240" foot distance is in fact 242 feet as shown on the survey plat which was given to Ronald Simmons, which is of course the FBI Survey plat of 2/7/64.
This is the FBI "FIB" in which the SS work of 12/5/63 in which the impact of the Z313 position was made to disappear, and the FBI/JEH & Company, thereafter moved (on paper) a shot and attempted to sell that JBC was hit at the 240-foot mark and that the Z313 impact was made to disappear, yet the survey plat still demonstrated the Altgens impact location.

This, not unlike a brick, neither flew nor swam!

Primarly due to the fact that it did not, and could not account for all of JBC's antics shortly after having come out from behind the road sign, as well as the extremely short distance/elapsed time on Elm St. for a shot to have struck JBC at a 240 foot slope distance and then the last shot to struck JFK only 25-feet farther down the street.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All of which demonstrates that the WC had that information/knowledge which clearly demonstrated that they knew exactly when the first shot was fired, as determined by Time/Life on November 26, 1963.

All of which demonstrates that the WC had that information relative to exactly when the SS as well as FBI demonstrated the impact of the third/last/final shot down in front of James Altgens position, as this position is clearly platted on the SS as well as the FBI Survey Plats, and did not change.

All of which demonstrates the beginnings of the WC lie in that they knew that the Z313 impact location was correct for one of the shots, that the survey plats showed the impact of the third/Altgens Shot, that the Time/Life as well as SS & FBI works showed the location of the first shot, and yet the FBI/aka the WC is now attempting to sell the impact location of some mythical shot in which the slope distance was 240-feet.


Quite obviously, no one has ever correlated the importance of that information which Melvin Eisenberg has "let out of the bag" in regards to exactly what the WC fully knew and how they proceeded to cover it up.

Just perhaps, the "cats in the bag" have now turned into a TIGER* for the WC.

*HUSTLER MAGAZINE definition of TIGER: A 400 pound P***y that will eat you!

noted (Eisenberg material), tnx....

Probably not to bad for someone who is just an ole "wannabe" with a credibility problem and is in all probability just jealous of all of these "Scout Snipers" who permeate these forums.

Tom Purvis lastly:

[...]



Not bad? An understatement at best.....You've urged on more than a few in their studies/research concerning the 11/22/63 Dealey Plaza photo/film record. So, please continue when you can!

I do notice the resident "Scout Snipers" have faded into obscurity, AGAIN. I wonder why

A major hurdle LNer's have here (and elsewhere), they can't quite comprehend there are researchers whom have NOT discounted the possibility of LHO's involvement in the assassination (either wittingly or un-wittingly). Hence, CT post photo/film theses, scenarios and research while LNer's wage a PR campaign in support of the WCR, and the status quo...

A simple fact remains: the thinking public supports (for whatever reason) a conspiracy did JFK in on 11/22/63!

A simple fact remains: the thinking public supports (for whatever reason) a [b]conspiracy did JFK in on 11/22/63![/b]



In that, there is little doubt that they are corret.

(a) One way or another, a conspiracy is absolutely responsible for the death of JFK.

( And thereafter, a conspiracy is, beyond any doubt, responsible for the death of LHO.

© And then, a completely unrelated conspiracty is responsible for the WC fantasyland story.


And, although (a) & ( are most certainly related, this does not mean that © is also a part of this.


Politicans lie for political reasons! (& gain I might add)

Placement into Perspective:



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/simmons.htm

Mr. SIMMONS. Yes; we did. We placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of 175 feet, 240 feet, and 265 feet,


Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state where you derived these distances?
Mr. SIMMONS. These distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are you sure they were not the values I gave to you myself?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1. Since the US Secret Service as well as the FBI had (for the first shot) determined a confirmed impact point which was slightly farther down Elm St. at a slant distance of 184 feet (TSDB to Pavement), there is only one single location from which one could derive the 240-feet slope distance.
That being the Time/Life work of 11/26/63.

Therefore, if one had access to the Time/Life information, then one also had access to the Z313 (yellow curb in background) impact as it too is clearly shown on the Time/Life survey plat.

2. The slope distance of 240 feet is found ONLY on that survey plat which was done for the US Secret Service on 2/7/64.
It is the exact same survey plat as was given to Ronald Simmons by Eisenberg, in which the Z313 impact location has been made to disappear, and the impact was moved back up Elm St. some 25 feet or so, thus giving the mythological 240-feet slope distance to impact.

Yet! The FBI Survey Plat of 2/7/64 which Eisenberg gave to Ronald Simmons, DOES NOT have the accurate 265-feet slope distance to the Z313 impact point.
Rather, not unlike the original SS Survey Plat, the FBI plat of 2/7/64 still carries the "Altgens" impact point down at stationing 4+95, in which the slope distance (TSDB to Pavement) was 294 feet.

Since the US Secret Service Survey accurately demonstrated the 267-feet (TSDB to Pavement) slope distance for the Z313 impact, anyone with a basic understanding of trig as well as the height of JFK above the pavement, could easily calculate the correct 265-feet slope distance.

But! One can not derive it from either the Time/Life work (which is highly incorrect), nor is it to be found on the FBI work of 2/7/64.

Therefore clearly demonstrating that one had access to that information which was derived during the SS work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.

So! One can not have knowledge of the FBI 240-foot slope distance, as shown on the survey plat given to Ronald Simmons, without also having knowledge of the third/last/final shot Altgens impact location at Stationing 4+95. As, it too is clearly demonstrated on the survey plat.

They are on the same survey plat!
----------------------------------------------------------------
And, one can not have knowledge about the 265-foot TSDB to JFK's head slope distance at Z313 impact, without having knowledge of the US SS survey plat of 12/5/63, which demonstrates this, the Z313 impact location. (without elevation of JFK's head corrected into the distance & angle)

Which impact location does not exist on the FBI Survey Plat which was given to Ronald Simmons.

And lastly, one can not have knowledge of the 175 foot slope distance (TSDB to JFK's head) at the first shot impact point as determined by the Time/Life work of 11/26/63, without having knowlede of the Time/Life Survey and it's accurate placement of a nail in Elm St. at that point identified by Time/Life during the first assassination re-enactment.

As, this slope distance does not appar on either the SS or the FBI Survey Plats.




Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, the figures which I gave Mr. Simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the Commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are.


"There is No Magic"

However!

There is considerable "sleight-of-hand", even if it is in fact often "slight"!

Tom,

Wasn’t the vehicle (average) velocity and the (various) shot timings based on the frame speed of the Zapruder film.

Chris Brown.

The elspsed frames of the Z-film come into play based on the erroneously reported minimum time to operate the rifle.

The WC reported a 2.2 to 2.4 second mininimum time to operate and fire the weapon.
At 18.3 elapsed frames per second, this would equate to approximately 41 to 44 minimum elapsed frames of film between shots.

The error in this is that the 2.2 to 2.4 seconds is that time required to operate and fire the Carcano, utilizing the scope, and no one actually took into consideration the operating time if one actually utilized the fixed sights.

Many persons have fired the Carcano in 1.8 to 1.9 seconds elapsed time, utilizing only the fixed sights.
Thusly cutting the "elapsed frame" time down to 33 to 35 elapsed frames of the film.

Since the actual third/last/final shot struck JFK when he was directly in front of James Altgens position, at approximately the
Z341 position, by sticking with the 41 to 44 elapsed frames of the film, no one would normally be looking in this location for a shot impact. (Z-313 + 41 = Z-354 minimum if one believed the WC).

Now, in recognitioon that Z=341 is only 28 frames from Z-313, which also comes to 1.5 seconds of elapsed time, then one of two conditions exists.

1. There was in fact a second shooter as this is far too short of a period of time for operation of the Carcano.

2. A few frames of the film have been "excised", which not only serves to indicate a faster speed for the Presidential Limo, but also serves to totally "hide" that a shot occurred at the Altgens location.


One can take their choice, as there was most assuredly a third/last/final shot which struck JFK in the head as the Presidential Limo was directly in front of James Altgens.

Personally, in consideration that so many witnesses have stated that the Presidential Limo almost came to a stop, I will stick with the latter.

The elspsed frames of the Z-film come into play based on the erroneously reported minimum time to operate the rifle.

The WC reported a 2.2 to 2.4 second mininimum time to operate and fire the weapon.
At 18.3 elapsed frames per second, this would equate to approximately 41 to 44 minimum elapsed frames of film between shots.

The error in this is that the 2.2 to 2.4 seconds is that time required to operate and fire the Carcano, utilizing the scope, and no one actually took into consideration the operating time if one actually utilized the fixed sights.

Many persons have fired the Carcano in 1.8 to 1.9 seconds elapsed time, utilizing only the fixed sights.
Thusly cutting the "elapsed frame" time down to 33 to 35 elapsed frames of the film.

Since the actual third/last/final shot struck JFK when he was directly in front of James Altgens position, at approximately the
Z341 position, by sticking with the 41 to 44 elapsed frames of the film, no one would normally be looking in this location for a shot impact. (Z-313 + 41 = Z-354 minimum if one believed the WC).

Now, in recognitioon that Z=341 is only 28 frames from Z-313, which also comes to 1.5 seconds of elapsed time, then one of two conditions exists.

1. There was in fact a second shooter as this is far too short of a period of time for operation of the Carcano.

2. A few frames of the film have been "excised", which not only serves to indicate a faster speed for the Presidential Limo, but also serves to totally "hide" that a shot occurred at the Altgens location.


One can take their choice, as there was most assuredly a third/last/final shot which struck JFK in the head as the Presidential Limo was directly in front of James Altgens.

Personally, in consideration that so many witnesses have stated that the Presidential Limo almost came to a stop, I will stick with the latter.

Tom,

I may have not have put my original question as I should have (I have no expertise in film or photography)
Wasn’t the vehicle (average) velocity and the (various) shot timings based on the frame speed of the of the cine camera used to film the assassination by Zapruder.
I’m not questioning your take on the assassination or the fact (or not) that frames have been deleted from the original Zapruder film.

Chris Brown.

February 7, 1964

The FBI is going to set the record straight!


Mr. West survey personnel set up their instrument on an established nail in Elm St. which had long prior been designated as "Pt. #1".

Fortunately, from previoius survey notes, we know that Pt. #1 happens to be that point as established during the Time/Life Survey work as being where Time/Life determined the first shot was fired/struck JFK.

It is noted that Pt. #1 is not the location for impact of the first shot as determined by the SS during the work of 12/3/63 & 12/4/63.

--------------------------------------------------

From "Pt. #1", West Survey goes through a variety of shooting angles; elevations; etc;.
However, this work is nowhere near as time consuming as was the SS work in which Mr. West had established horizontal and vertical control throughout Elm St.

Therefore, it was a relatively simple task to complete what the FBI wanted done in less than one day.

From the Pt. #1 position, West Survey:

1. Re-established the first shot impact point for the FBI, which was the exact same location as had been determined by the SS.

Stationing 3+81.3, which is also the street elevation location of 423.7 impact location.

2. Established a completely new SECOND SHOT impact location at Stationing 4+42.5.

This never before heard of location is where the FBI attempted to make the Z313 impact (stationing 4+65.3) disappear and attempted to move the second shot impact back up Elm St. prior to the Presidential Limo even having passed the Jean Hill/Moorman position.

Note: Come to think of it, since the WC also "moved" James Altgens (on paper) back up to this location, one may as well move the shot impact back up there too.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Of course, Z313 could not be made to disappear as it was clearly caught on the Z-film with the yellow curb mark in the background, as well as the fact that it had been relatively surveyed in during the Time/Life Survey work.

3. And of course lastly, knowing from the medical evidence as to exactly what posiltion JFK had to be in to incur the shot to the head as determined during the autopsy, as well as having a first generation copy of the Z-film (as did the SS), to include access to all witnesses, the FBI knew exactly where the third/last/final shot impact was.

At stationing 4+95, which had been surveyed in for the SS, and did not change for the FBI work.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite honestly, there is very little that is difficult in determination of how JFK was assassinated as well as the virtual exact timing of the three shots fired from the sixth floor of the TSDB which are totally responsible for the assassination.

The true "fun" comes in attempting to unravel all of those little games that have been played with the evidence which have so obscurred the simple factual evidence that it has sent multitudes of persons chasing their on tail in the labyrinth of rabbit holes to which the obfuscation has lead.

The "Government"/aka Specter, Hoover, & Company long ago ceased to have need to continue to confuse this subject matter.

Purported "JFK Assassination Researchers" have more than sufficiently screwed it up beyond belief.

FUBB!

The facts Purvis presents seem to clearly negate the official story.

How he then concludes that all shots were fired from the 6th floor window is a mystery.

Jack

Jack, I think I understand what Tom is saying. And his analysis of the survey data is consistent with the conclusion that there were three shots fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD...yet it also puts the lie to the WC's "official" conclusion

What I'm getting out of Tom's analysis of the survey data vs. the WC testimony is that, more or less, the first shot impact point was consistent in all the surveys. From there is what gets tricky. The FBI, in "setting the record straight," comes up with a 2nd shot location--out of thin air, apparently--to "replace" the shot at Z313. Unfortunately for them, that pesky Z313 impact is pretty hard to ignore. Meanwhile, the 3rd shot remains located at 4+95, or the Altgens position, according to the FBI...same as in the SS survey.

Enter Specter and the Magic Bullet Theory...suddenly, we have shot #1 as the "magic bullet"; then "imaginary" shot #2 at 4+42.5 becomes "the shot that missed" [but if it missed, how did the FBI locate that impact point...the impact with NOTHING?]. Then, through sleight of hand, the Z313 shot suddenly became shot #3, even though the actual shot #3 at the Altgens location--4+95--never went away. In the WC "fairy tale" it was simply ignored...even though both the SS and the FBI survey data included it! And since the shot at the Altgens location was ignored in the official WC report, in the collective mind of the public it also "went away," because it was never part of the conclusions of the WC...even though, as I just stated, both the FBI and the SS surveys acknowledged the 4+95 impact location as fact!

Or as Spector & Co., in the role as the Wonderful Wizards of Oz would have said to those who may have discovered the shot at the Altgens location, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! [Or the shot after Z313!] The Mighty Oz has spoken!" And because so many truth-seekers have listened to Spector & Co., "rabbit holes" of mystery and intrigue have appeared to swallow up many an otherwise righteous researcher. The survey data was there all the time, buried in the minutae of the evidence but missing from the conclusions, as the WC defenders have for years asked the old Groucho Marx question, "Who are you gonna believe--me, or your own two eyes?"

So Jack, you are correct that Tom's analysis "seem[s] to clearly negate the official story"; yet it's amazingly consistent with three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD, and three hits from behind. But I don't think it proves that "all shots were fired from the 6th floor window"; it only shows that the three that hit JFK were most likely fired from there. It doesn't explain the SS agents' use of the terms "fusillade" or "flurry" of shots [hard for me to imagine 3 shots in 8 seconds being characterized as a "fusillade" or a "flurry," IMHO]. Apparently those other shots [the ones that made up the "flurry"], from wherever, simply missed everything and everyone.

[duplicate post deleted]

3.9 on a 4.0 scale.

Had you not taken a short nap, then "Valedictorian" would have most certainly been yours.

But then again, no one else has achieved the 3.9 as of yet.

Tom

Certainly glad to see that you are still out and around.

Jack, I think I understand what Tom is saying.


Now that is scary! Especially for someone (me, not you), who consistently confuses themself!



What I'm getting out of Tom's analysis of the survey data vs. the WC testimony is that, more or less, the first shot impact point was consistent in all the surveys. From there is what gets tricky. The FBI, in "setting the record straight," comes up with a 2nd shot location--out of thin air, apparently--to "replace" the shot at Z313. Unfortunately for them, that pesky Z313 impact is pretty hard to ignore. Meanwhile, the 3rd shot remains located at 4+95, or the Altgens position, according to the FBI...same as in the SS survey.


4.0


Enter Specter and the Magic Bullet Theory...suddenly, we have shot #1 as the "magic bullet"; then "imaginary" shot #2 at 4+42.5 becomes "the shot that missed" [but if it missed, how did the FBI locate that impact point...the impact with NOTHING?]. Then, through sleight of hand, the Z313 shot suddenly became shot #3, even though the actual shot #3 at the Altgens location--4+95--never went away. In the WC "fairy tale" it was simply ignored...even though both the SS and the FBI survey data included it! And since the shot at the Altgens location was ignored in the official WC report, in the collective mind of the public it also "went away," because it was never part of the conclusions of the WC...even though, as I just stated, both the FBI and the SS surveys acknowledged the 4+95 impact location as fact!


4.0


Or as Spector & Co., in the role as the Wonderful Wizards of Oz would have said to those who may have discovered the shot at the Altgens location, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! [Or the shot after Z313!] The Mighty Oz has spoken!" And because so many truth-seekers have listened to Spector & Co., "rabbit holes" of mystery and intrigue have appeared to swallow up many an otherwise righteous researcher. The survey data was there all the time, buried in the minutae of the evidence but missing from the conclusions, as the WC defenders have for years asked the old Groucho Marx question, "Who are you gonna believe--me, or your own two eyes?"


4.0 (+ Bonus Points for excellent written dramatization)



So Jack, you are correct that Tom's analysis "seem[s] to clearly negate the official story"; yet it's amazingly consistent with three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD, and three hits from behind.


4.0


But I don't think it proves that "all shots were fired from the 6th floor window";


4.0 (suprised you on that grade didn't I?)


it only shows that the three that hit JFK were most likely fired from there.


3.9

(although angles of fire and wounds are consitent with that hypothesis, it merely demonstrates that all three shots were fired from behind and above)
No "most likely", merely that it is consistent with the facts.


It doesn't explain the SS agents' use of the terms "fusillade" or "flurry" of shots [hard for me to imagine 3 shots in 8 seconds being characterized as a "fusillade" or a "flurry," IMHO].

2.5


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."
Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.
Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.


---------------------

#1:

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.


#2 & #3:

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.
Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir.


Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.



Apparently those other shots [the ones that made up the "flurry"], from wherever, simply missed everything and everyone.

2.0


There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/willis_p.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis?
Mr. WILLIS. Three shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all?
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir.


Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three shots fired?
Mr. WILLIS. Yes.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.


Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm

When the President's automobile was very close to him and he could see the President's face very well, the President was seated, but was leaning forward when he stiffened perceptibly at the same instant what appeared to be a rifle shot sounded. According to BREHM, the President seemed do to stiffen and come to a pause when another shot sounded and the President appeared to be badly hit in the head. BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.


BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BANG!--------------------5.8 to 5.9 seconds later---------------BANG--1.9 to 2.0 seconds later--BANG!

BANG--------------------------------------------------------------BANG----BANG

For the shot timing to work - either the Zapruder film was altered or someone else was shooting...

either, perhaps BOTH?

Agreed

Actually!

"Lefty's" have relatively accurately fired the Carcano in as little as 1.6 to 1.8 seconds of elapsed time utilizing the iron sights.

The 2.25 to 2.4 seconds, as quoted by the WC, is related strictly to target acquisition through usage of the scope.

Additionally, numerous individuals (right-handed shooters) have fired the Carcano in 1.9 to 2.0 seconds of elaspsed time between shots, utilizing the iron sights for aiming.

For someone who has practiced with and had has experience operating the weapon, a 2.0 second elapsed time or slightly less would be more in the norm, if utilizing the iron sights.

The prime indicator that there are frames missing from the film between Z313 and the last shot impact down in front of James Altgens, is that the vehicle speed is inconsitant with the testilmonies which have repeatedly stated that the Presidential Limo slowed down considerably, and which is not shown on the film.

The rapid nature of the two last shots appears to be what lead members of the WC staff to question the entire Oswald family in regards to whether LHO was left-handed or not.
An indicator that someone was fully aware that a "lefty" could out-speed shoot a "righty" with a bolt action rifle.
So, it would appear that they completely ignored that one can fire the weapon considerably faster when utilizing only the iron sight for target acquisition.

Of course, there is also the fact that they did not want anyone looking in between Z313 and Z354 (313 + (18.3 X 2.25), and therefore could not, or would not let that possibility out of the bag.

After all, one might accidentally begin to look at the vicinity of James Altgens were one to understand that the weapon is easily fired faster when utilizing the iron sights for target acquisition.

*************************************************************

Hi Purv Honey,

Just letting you know that your New Orleans contingency is still reading when not working at The Hill, over in Santa Monica.

Good show and good shot, Bunky!

Love ya,
Ter

New Orleans contingency


Were it that New Orleans had remained what it was!

Mardi Gras & all else are hardly worthwhile as it has become so "commercialized"!
The old "fun crowd" just is not there.

But then again, Key West and most other places have become the same.

First honeymoon stop after getting married in Gulfport was New Orleans & the Playboy Club.
Which ultimately ended at the Club in Denver.

At least we have those "good memories".


We must be getting old---er!

P.S. Back to Subject matter: None of which clearly establishes whether LHO was the shooter; the patsy; or the rabbit.