The name given on the order form for the M-C as a witness to the buyer's good
character was "DF Drittal".

"dienst fur dritte" is German for "on behalf of a third party". (dienst fur dritte - DFD / DF Drittal - DFD. ("drittel"is German for "a third").

A draft card Oswald received in 1960 was signed "Gut Schieffer"

This is a slight mispelling of the German, "Gut Schiffer", which translates as "good skipper/sailer"

The Selective Service card in the name of Hidell found in an expanding number of wallets throughout the known universe and parts of Dallas, was signed "Good Hoffen"

"Hoffen" is German for "luck".

Good luck, indeed!

Make of it what you will.

Any way to compare those signatures with Edwin Walker's? (I imagine he picked up enough German to play around with it.)

Ron

Ron, I don't have any way of personally doing it. I am aware of only one sample of Walker's writing, but it would be useless for comparison purposes as he was very old at the time he produced it, and the writing was obviously done with a shaky hand. Other samples though, no doubt exist, and someone with the time and resources could probably track one down fairly easily.

That said, Walker (a possibility, for sure) wasn't the person I had in mind. I was thinking along the lines of someone like Jerry Droller.

If I am right about the intended meaning of "DF Drittal", it's something of a major (though cryptic) clue that the rifle was purchased by or for a third party. The other names being German words/phrases, strengthen the case that "DF Drittal" is, as well.

FWIW, I have searched, and never found anyone with the surname, "Drittal". If all Oswald wanted was a name, why not one that is recognisable as a name?

Unless one wants to believe Oswald pulled the name out of thin air, and it meant nothing to him, this should count as phyiscal evidence of conspiracy, imo.

Greg

For the record I do have some documents with Walker's handwritting.

I am a little skeptical about:

"A draft card Oswald received in 1960 was signed "Gut Schieffer"

What is the date of issue on this card?

Oswald was in Russia at this time and I would assume that anything he had received would not have made it past the Soviet authorities first. Who would have sent Oswald a draft card after he had been discharged from the Marines in September of 1959? Who would have sent that draft card to Russia? Who would have known where to send it?

Some thoughts (if Lee did in fact receive a draft card in 1960):

September 13th 1960: Oswald was given an "undesirable discharge" from the Marine Corps. Was the draft card sent to him at this time?

February 13th 1961: The American Embassy in Moscow is notified by Lee that he wants to return to the United States.

Could the "Gut Schiffer", which translates as "good skipper/sailer" have been a message that began Oswald's journey back to the US?

But I am confused because we find that "officially" on January 30th 1961 Oswald learns of his "Undesirable" discharge, which is incorrectly reported by his mother to be "Dishonorable." This would seem to preclude him from having received some sort of correspondence dealing with a draft card in 1960.

Can you provide additional information about these three pieces of evidence?

The translation of these three "names" are intriguing!

Jim Root

The "D.F. Drittal" signature is on the order form dated 1/27/63 for the Smith & Wesson .38 pistol, not for the MC rifle. (The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald, p. 60.)

Alek James Hidell's Selective Service card is on p. 67 of TSFLHO. But the card is not completely filled out, containing only his name, signature, and SS No. The name and number both appear to have been retyped over smudged erasures. It's almost as if an effort was made to give the card the appearance of a sloppy fake. It is undated, and the place for a member or clerk of the board to sign is blank, though some signature looks very faintly visible, as if erased (cleanly, no smudge at all) or like a very poor carbon copy of something looks. Though illegible, it doesn't look like Gut Hoffen. It looks to me like it may have been two words beginning with capitals L and J.

I didn't find a draft card from 1960 in the book.

the "Gut Hoffen" sig.....

spot.acorn.net/ jfkplace/03/JD/JD-G.html

Here's the direct route:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/JD/G/07.gif

That's apparently the 1960 Oswald draft card that Greg referred to. And the signature is so scribbled it looks like it can be read two ways: It can say Gut Hoffen, or it can say Gut Schiffer.

Again, the Hidell draft card as shown in TSFLHO has no legible sig and no date. And FWIW the SS number is 43 224 39 532, the last five digits being the same as on the Oswald card.

The Hidell card also has Oswald's photo (real draft cards did not include photos), to add to the phoniness that was apparently meant to be obvious.

Ron, Greg

The draft card shown may be a lgegitimate card for Lee Harvey Oswald. I could accept the fact that a man who officially got out of the Marines on Sept. 11, 1959 may not have had his "new" draft card issued till perhaps Feb. 4, 1960. This card would be issued only after his local draft board would have been notified of a change in circumstances for the bearer of the card. I would assume that card would have been sent to his mother and he may have obtained it when he returned to the US.

The reason I believe that this is a plausible explanation for this card is the "IV-A" classification. This classification is for "Registrant with sufficient prior active service or who is a sole surviving son." Oswald would fall into this category.

In 1960's America it was not unusual for employers to request a man of "draft age" for his draft card. If a person was "draft bait" (likly to be drafted soon) they would be less likely to hire and train them for a job of substance. A person who had completed their time in the military or was not subject to military service would have a better chance of attaining employment.

A draft card for an alias would also be needed for the same reason.

Jim Root

Hi Greg,

"hoffen" does not mean luck, it means" to hope", luck in german is "Glück".



George

Danke Herr Bollschweiler,
Endlich jemand der Deutsch kann.

George, what do you think of the "Gut Schieffer". Do you agree it could have meant "Gut Schiesser" or grammatically perhaps more correct "Guter Schiesser".

Sometimes in "old writing" the S letter will look like a F.

Oder nicht?

Thanks!

Hi Antti

I think you're absolutely right, as the old "s" looks like "f" and can easily be mistaken as a "f". As you sugguested, it could mean "good shooter", something that would point to LHO's sharp-shooter training in the marines.

as a good example, on the last line the first word is Unterstützung means support.





George

If the card is legit, as Jim suggests, it would not have a prank signature. I think we may be reading a "Gut" that isn't there. If legit, the card was apparently signed by someone whose first name began with a G and who had a German surname.

Ron

G . I . Issue ?

Hi John

as you see, I've edited my post on that "f" matter but I didn't get your part

George

- Tom Kutzer & Mark Knight.


Thanks Tom and Mark for posting the links. That is is the one for Oswald signed "Gut Schieffer". It is not the Hidell "Good Hoffen" one.

This, I believe, gives the best view of the sig on the Hidell card:
www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0355a.htm



Ron, it's not the same card. This one is in the name of "Hidell", and was allegedly in the arrest wallet.

According to WC expert witness, Alwyn Cole, it looked like "Good Hoffer". I believe however, it is "Hoffen".

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning for a moment to the face of Commission Exhibit No. 795, in your previous testimony, as I recall it, you stated that while you could not make out precisely the signature of the member or clerk of local board, it appeared to be the name Good Hoffer, is that correct?
Mr. COLE That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, did that appear to be one word or two words?
Mr. COLE. It appears to me to be two words or two names, capital G-o-o-d, and then the name capital H-o-f-f-e-r.

Ron, Greg

- Jim Root

Jim, good points.


- George Bollschweiler

George,

thanks for correction. Just looked it up in a German - English dictionary. Apparently can also mean "(to) trust"?

- George Bollschweiler

George and Antti - sound like you may have something there! Well done.



Ron, of your two options, "prank" is the only reasonable one. Consider if other options may exist.

Cole, by the way, believed the Oswald card was signed "Schiffen" with the first name starting with either E or G.

Greg,

It's the same card, but the reproduction in Groden's book is much clearer and lighter than the WC exhibit, but the signature has been whited out or otherwise obliterated someway, leaving only enough of a trace to tell that a signature was there.

I have no idea why this difference exists or what it means.

Ron

I have a suggestion: Since local draft boards were made up of local people appointed to represent the Selevtive Service System, can we not locate a roster of the local board for the counties in and around Dallas in 1960, in order to ascertain whether or not there was a member of the board whose name may have approximated what is on the draft cards? While I haven't usually had much luck with 'net searches for such mundane data, perhaps someone can find a local source, in or around Dallas, such as a newspaper file/library/morgue, or whatever they call 'em these days. In my hometown in Indiana, in the 1960's an appointment to the local draft board was considered to have a little bit of prestige, and often came with a photo op for the local newspaper. Not sure if it was quite as big a deal in "Big D," but I would assume that draft board appointments would warrant at least a mention in the newspaper.

Knowing who served on the local draft board in February of 1960 might go a long way toward clearing this up...but then, I suppose I'm stating the obvious.

Mark

Good point but I believe that Oswald's mother lived in Fort Worth at the time (Tarrant County) and his mothers address would have been his forwarding address following his departure from the Marines on a hardship bais to look after her. Most draft boards are county operations hence the need for searching in Tarrant County. I did a quick google and could not find the obvious but I believe you are on the right track with your thoughts.

A "draft board" would still be in existance today (18 year olds still must register) and it would seem plausible that a history of the members of previous boards would be available somewhere. (Historically it is not unusual to find judges sitting on draft boards)

Good hunting,

Jim Root

Ron, apologies -- firstly for this, and secondly for forgetting to acknowledge your earlier correction as to what document bore the "Drittal" sig.

My posting time is extremely limited, and in trying to respond to all in one go, I seem to have gotten myself somewhat confused.

As I've pointed out earlier, the WC expert thought that the Hidell signiture was "Good Hoffer" and and the Oswald card was E or G "Schiffen". To my eye, the first is "Good Hoffer" and the latter is "Gut Schieffer". I'll allow I could be wrong in those interpretations, and also admit I'm more confident re the first than the latter.

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

If not, I think it strengthens the case that they were German words chosen for a specific reason. The use of "DF Drittal" (durst fur dritte/on behalf of a third party)
in regard to ordering a weapon is staggering in its possible ramifications - IF I am correct about it to start with. Precedents in using German words as surnames (if that is what they were eg Schiiffer, Hoffen) only bolster my claims about Drittal.

Jim, I believe you are correct. The Oswald card was issued by local board 114 (Fort Worth). The Hidell card suggests board 224. Have been unable to find out where that was/is.

[/QUOTE]What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames. [QUOTE]

Hi Greg

there is no doubt, that SCHIEFFER and HOFFER are common names in german. Now if we take that “f” and “s” problem concerning the old handwriting it could also stay for SCHIESSER and HOSSER which are common names as well.

The name SCHIFFEN as a surname does not exist as far as I checked (German directories) and if you change it to SCHISSEN there is no match either. The word “Schiss” does exists but it means
“fear” (slang) and even another expression I rather not mention here.

HOFFEN as name it is not impossible but again there is no match (Directories), where HOSSEN is a normal name.

Now, what about DRITTAL, the word actually exists but it is an old word for “a third” but sure no surname. The old writing for "s" could also be mistaken for a "t", especially if it is a handwriting. So if you change the “t” and instead write “s” we would have the name DRISSAL and there I found matches even in the States. So the name could have been DF Drissal?

e.g.

Click to view attachment

Do you maybe have enhanced copy of that card so I could check with some old writings?


George

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

(image)
Click to view attachment

I think one can see a L. H. Oswald in Lee's handwriting under the scrawly A. J. Hidell

Also the usually read D F Drittal could very well be J F Drittal, scrub the PO and there's the J ( I also think the 8 is a 3 as it should be for Lee.)

from Roberts topic "The Other Oswald['s]" : Fritz Dieter Jaeger? Dieter apparently means something like 'peoples army'

Is this an attempt to link the rifle which was clearly ordered by a A J Hidell to a revolver that was possibly ordered by a L. H. Oswald? I know it's a bit far out and speculative, but perhaps a german speaker could make something more of it?

Does this make sense at all?

"I think what it looks like is that A (J) Hidell is a means whereby Oswalds mail etc can be intercepted. For example if one wished to switch pistols on him then the alias allows an unknown to do so. Particularly if that someone is within the PO dept. So then a pistol that Oswald is arrested with could then be replaced with an identical one which is infact the one he ordered in the first place but never had. The identical one which matches the purchase order S/N then is the 'drop gun' and the one Oswald actually had ends up in a bag drop some distance away a day after the assassination. IOW back in the loop but 'laundered'. ??? This would make his execution early on essential as dead he cannot answer questions that only he may have a provable answer to? ie. he needed to be silenced, not because he had betrayed anyone etc, but because the case against him is only 'watertight' if he is dead. He may not have had any idea about any funny business re the pistol(s) and if he knew he hadn't killed Tippit, then he would react to an attempt to get him for that as a setup by the DPD which he was confident wouldn't work because he knew his gun hadn't fired the shots. However by the time came around to that, he would begin to understand his pistol had been swapped and the double blind was far more than he (or anyone) thought. Therefore he would also realise he had a solid defense by going back to the pistols origin and supplying its details as known by him (pick up, signing forms etc) and thus walk free. Therefore his death was inevitable. Without it the conspirators were highly vulnerable."

Where is the carton the pistol arrived in when Oswald picked it up? What about a delivery receipt signed by him (or anyone for that matter) for either the pistol or the rifle? Do these exist? If so where can one view a copy? If not....?

______________________________

John,

Why would LHO, or anyone else for that matter, keep the carton instead of just throwing it away?

--Thomas

______________________________

Michael, I understand what you mean, and an answer of 'at the dump' is good enough for me.

Lee appears to have had a poor persons habits of reuse and a good clean box with a lid (if that is what the pistol came in) can be a good thing to have. Possibly more so mid last century. I've no idea if he kept it or dumped it. So far, in searching through the WC Report I have found nothing to indicate he picked up the pistol or the rifle like a signed receipt, or a labeled shipping container.

_______________________________________


John,

"Michael"?? How did you know my biological middle name?! LOL My original name was Thomas Michael Mahon. I didn't find that out until '87...

--Thomas

_______________________________________

Oops, my apologies, Thomas, my mind was momentarily on another matter. Still, an amusing coincidence.

Apart from the police producing the pistol with the same S/N as sent to A. J. Hidell is there anything to prove Lee ever had that pistol?

What may be helpful is if George could weigh in here and advise if any of "Hoffer", "Hoffen", "Schiffen", "Schieffer" or "Drittal" could be German surnames.

(image)
Click to view attachment

I think one can see a L. H. Oswald in Lee's handwriting under the scrawly A. J. Hidell. The L H. is obvious and the Oswald (Lee did put the O in a lower position) fits and there is a outline of the other letters inwhat at fist looks like a messy scribble.

Also the usually read D F Drittal could very well be J F Drittal, scrub the PO and there's the J ( I also think the 8 is a 3 as it should be for Lee.)

from Roberts topic "The Other Oswald['s]" : Fritz Dieter Jaeger? Fort Worth. Oswald did say in interview he got the pistol in Fort Worth.

Perhaps a german member can make something more of it. Names of immigrants are often changed, misspelt etc.

John,

I agree -- the "A.J. Hidell" is notably sloppy, and probably is covering an L.H. Oswald underneath. I don't believe that the "O" in Oswald was lowercase, however. I think he descended slightly below the line with the capital O, and the "H" in Hidell is larger than most of his other capital letters to compensate for it.

I'd also venture that the pen he used wasn't writing very well, as a portion of the capital "O" in "Oswald" appears to have not come out very well. It also looks like he might have gone over his letters twice when writing "Hidell". Nevertheless, I agree that it is quite possible that this is an overwrite.

Good catch... Now... to understand what it all means??

The more I look at this, the more oddities I see. The "d" in Hidell appears to be crossed, like a "t". Perhaps it is a hastily dotted "i" (which for a fast writer, can turn into a dash).

The "Drittal" line, however, is even more troubling.

I can see it as "J." more than "D." at the start of the line, with an outside shot at "O."
However, I don't see "F." as the second initial. Perhaps it is "Fr." Or even "Fri."? As in J. Fr. Drittal...

"Drittal" itself is odd, too. "Drittol", "Grittol" (The space between the vowel and the "l" at the end is large - perhaps there is a letter between -- as in Drittaul).

The PO box number looks obviously tampered to me... 2415, 2915 (edit) I had someone who is not familiar with the case look at the PO Box line, and she thought it could also bee 2815...

J. Fr.(au) (Frau : Wife or Mrs) Drittal?

Really going out on a limb here...I'm wondering if, Ana Drittel has a brother, or other male relative, recruited by an alphabet agency. I only risk thinking "out loud", here, because the Aug. 1966, NY Times obit describes widow Ana as "Russian."

I think your find is quite remarkable, Tom. Just thought I'd bring back some older speculations. Can't find a good copy of the coupon now. This is all just speculations that may or may not get somewhere. But the D maybe being J could be a thoughtless attemprt to hide something but needed to match an ID necessary for the order, ie assuming a Mrs John Drittal (Hurt) and justifying it with Frau. A bit like OH Lee ( what is your name (meaning surname)? Lee... Oswald..er...Harvey, middle name... and before correcting to Lee Harvey Oswald OH Lee is written...no big deal really), which is likely a mistake written according to the landladys ethnic background.

Thanks, John. I got a lucky break. Jim Root's reply to my "John W. Hurt" post, the other day, was the catalyst for my looking a little harder.

I am glad you resurrected this thread, and your guess is as good as mine, as the saying goes.

Meet the family,,,,(I'd be grateful to anyone who can post the full text of these obits.)

From John Simkin http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2310


From CE 2973
Sources acquainted with some phases of Cuban activities in the New Orleans area advised on Nov 25 and Nov 26, 1963 , that they have no information regarding LEE HARVEY OSWALD, JACK LEON RUBY, JACK RUBENSTEIN, OH LEE, AJ HIDELL, ALEK JAMES HIDELL, ALEX J HIDELL, ANA HIDELL, or any variations of the HIDELL name. No sources advised they knew anyone whose last name was HIDELL.

The HSCA also asked Col. Jones if the 112th had a file on ANA HIDELL.

Now you're telling me you've found a trace of the name ANA DRITTEL???? Ana of course is not the common spelling, so I think you may be on to something....

She may have identified as Russian but that does not mean she wasn't German given the ever shifting borders, territories, annexures etc
DRITELL= a third
Oswald was smitten with the opera, Queen of Spades (which had occult and metaphysical themes).
The number three has a great significance in the above opera
Oswald - According to Marina & Lee had a "thing" about the number three
The Queen of Spades name was "Anna"
The character named Surin sums up at the card table, "I play cautiously, never get excited, never lose my head, and yet I go on losing!” which sounds a lot like Oswald...
Anna, in her youth had turned to Count St Germain to help her out on a gambling debt. St Germain was a spy; a quirky combination of The Mentalist, Gotlieb and Bond. St Germain told her the secret of winning at the table...
The Queen of Spades playing card indicates "opening oneself up to injury or downfall". The card was known in France back when as "Pallas" Pallas, in Greek mythology was related to Athena who kills him accidently, then assumes his name becoming Pallas Athena... and this all takes place near a body of water called "Triton" - there's that three again (and can anyone say "Trinity River"?)

See what happens when I start thinking out loud?

Anni Driltelle , Hurt and Maurice Drittell

Anna DRITTELL
Birth Date: 10 Jun 1882
Death Date: Jan 1970
Social Security Number: 546-80-5126
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: California

Death Residence Localities
ZIP Code: 10038
Localities: New York, New York, New York
Peck Slip, New York, New York

1920 Census image, closeup of Ely Drittel family US census entry, names of siblings good match with
1973 NY Times obit, "Ana" is Anna, and "Maurice" is Morris. Full census image lists family birthplaces as "Russis Poland."

DRITTEL, ELY (1920 U.S. Census)
NEW YORK , KINGS, BROOKLYN
Age: 45, Male, Race: WHITE, Born: RUSS
Series: T625 Roll: 1165 Page: 182

1912 Drittel family ship's manifest from Ellis Island archives.
Begins with left side of first of two pages, on line 14. Four images, in sequence, L to R. Relevant line in second image has the word "Hebrew" visisble. I cannot read most of the handwritten entries. I inclued the line above line 14 in images 2, 3, and 4.

First reported as "D E" Drittal....



http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=90

Link to image of FBI report page.:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/servlet/...tation=portrait