los desaparecidos

Having done a bit of Rambling a la Keourac in my youth I know how easy it can be for those in the underbelly of society to disappear.

Clyde Snow, forensic anthropologist, when helping to train investigators following the fall of the Generals in Argentina, used a statistical technique developed by himself that was later used to help convict perpetrators of the Disappeared.

One problem they had was locating the graves. The bodies were usually logged as 'unknown'. So he compiled a list of all unknowns over a period extending pre and post Junta. Then by checking the frquency against an average he could pinpoint cemeteries to check. In this way he was also able to crossreference torture centers and other localities involved in the disposal of human beings.



I wonder if anyone has done a similar study of the U.S. equivalent of the 'unknown', John and Jane Doe, in the Dallas area in the period following the assassination? Obviously the obstructions createdby those who don't want these individuals identified, many of whom existed within the system in locked wards, mental institutions and jails, would make this difficult but not impossible.

I appreciate the opportunity given to continue posting on these important topics.

Lee is currently undertaking a fine study on the possible shooters, It may seem my insistence on civil rights is opposed to his. However, I don't see it that way. 'Lumpen' elemaents can be got everywhere. While I don't think that the prime strategists were black, it certainly would be in their interest to line up black patsies or even motivate elements in that community to participate.

As far as the unknown witnessess go, I wonder if anyone has noticed how many of the people who lined Dealey Plaza were black? Compare this to the number who weren't called as witnesses. Those who ran off, those who are 'unknown'. How many African-Americans are currently involved in researching the assassination?

as an aside I find that searching the internet is more productive if I use the words coloured' or 'coloured boy' rather than Black or African-American.

F.L. Blunt (possibly the only tiein to a witnessing of a post office shooter) seems to be one of the disappeared. A search reveals a black family Blunt with four dauchters. there is no mention of Fay Leon Blunt beyond his marriage to an Ethel Lee Cook and them having left Mississippi in the late 20's to live for some time in Chicago before apparently moving to Texas. They then appear to have separated and at the time of the assassination Fay was in Dallas and for some reason involved with the 11/22 occupants of the fifth floor of the dallas police department building, where one of those occupants saw reason to report a shooter at the post office. This was subsequently hushed up to the extent that no records exist in the DPD relesaed documents. However a redacted set of documents revealing a FBI investigation into this after the WC (even though Blunt had reported it shortly after the assassination and the actual witness had reported it instantly.) there was a very brief investiagation over the phone at the time that was immediately stymied by Harry Holmes (FBI informant) in the post office. However again not pursued. The DPD and the FBI knew immediately but did nothing? Who was Fay Leon Blunt? just another 'coloured boy'?

Some interesting observations John.

I'm going to use the terms 'black' and 'white' - hope that is acceptable.

Let's take a look at Norman, Jarman and Williams - three black individuals. Were they considered equal with all other citizens at the time - Dallas, 1963 - 1964? History would suggest the answer is 'no.' Therefore, the odds of their being coerced into saying something, or not saying something, could be considered higher on the probability scale, than a white - is that logical?

Now - I have really puzzled over something you have stated, and I think it's a very good observation. Of the black individuals in the Croft photo, who were lining the sidewalk on Elm street - only one has been identified, to the best of my knowledge [F. Lee Mudd], and even that ID is unclear, as relates to the photo. That makes 13 unidentified witnesses in a row. These witnesses, north of the lampost, lining the sidewalk, in front of the walled walkway, are all black - where are they in history? Why were they not called to give testimony? Why don't we know what they saw? From the Croft photo, it's obvious that they were all focused on the Motorcade.

Let's drop the fact that I believe a shooter may have been located somewhere directly behind them - these individuals were in a critical position. They would have seen everything. Was the fact that they were black a contributing factor in any way as to why we don't know who they are? Were any of them 'spoken to,' and perhaps threatened into silence?

It's just speculation, but the odds of this many individuals being gathered within that proximity, front and center, and none of them being called to testify, having been asked to provide an affidavit, or even simply identified - simply mind boggling.

Here's another factor to consider - F. Lee Mudd and many others [I can find some references] have some of the spectators in that location, including himself, dropping to the sidewalk. Where do we see that? Is it possible, as I have surmised, that certain elements, relative to events that took place in Dealey Plaza, that the record was sanitized and changed to eliminate any possible conclusions that shooters may have been present right there in the Plaza? Is that why we don't see Emmett Hudson and his young associated [operator #57 ] lying down on the sidewalk in the Moorman photo for example? Is that why we don't see a number of people lying down on the sidewalk with F. Lee Mudd? All we have on the record [someone correct me if I am wrong] lying down are some people on the south side - the triangle - and these were folks who could have theoretically been in the line of fire from the TSBD - same applies for the Newmans, the Hesters and that woman whose name I always forget. And speaking of the South side of Elm street, were the 2 black men standing opposite F. Lee Mudd ever identified? Who was the black porter that seems to have sprinted from his position on Houston to the knoll area?

But here's the real question - how would one go about identifying or locating these unknown individuals today, or getting their accounts secondhand, through living family members, or journals, etc.?

An aside - there was a coke bottle found behind the retaining wall on the 'knoll.' Coke bottles at this time were quite thick. There was no sign of shattered glass in any of the photos, films or reports. There appear to have been as many as 5 or more people behind that retaining wall - that's my opinion [based upon studying all available films and photos], as well as the opinion of RB Cutler, Dick Sprague and it appears Weisberg - and many others. There is a very good probability that another film or films were made from this general location. What does this say about Marilyn Sitzman? It's feasible that a weapon with a sonic suppressor may have created a noise which may have sounded like an exploding bottle - I'll concede on that possibility. Any black couple back there?

- lee

I think the answer might lie in a certain white mindset of the time, as described by biologist Janie Taylor to the ARRB. Taylor told the story of two black orderlies who were in the autopsy room when a doctor "performed some type of mutilation" of JFK's head wounds after many people were ordered to leave the room. (This story was told to Taylor by the deceased brother of one of the orderlies.)

Naturally the question arises, why would two black orderlies be allowed to stay in the room to observe this mutilation? The ARRB call report states, "Taylor said that African-Americans during that time period were often ignored and that non-African American workers in many workplaces would assume that an African-American's presence did not count. She believed that activities were often done in their presence with the perception that the activities would never be reported."

Believing the black orderly's story as told to Taylor is of course another matter.

As there is little interest in many witnesses simply because of who they were on the social ladder, it's important to consider them as a possible source.

Having done a bit of Rambling a la Keourac in my youth I know how easy it can be for those in the underbelly of society to disappear.

Clyde Snow, forensic anthropologist, when helping to train investigators following the fall of the Generals in Argentina, used a statistical technique developed by himself that was later used to help convict perpetrators of the Disappeared.

One problem they had was locating the graves. The bodies were usually logged as 'unknown'. So he compiled a list of all unknowns over a period extending pre and post Junta. Then by checking the frquency against an average he could pinpoint cemeteries to check. In this way he was also able to crossreference torture centers and other localities involved in the disposal of human beings.



I wonder if anyone has done a similar study of the U.S. equivalent of the 'unknown', John and Jane Doe, in the Dallas area in the period following the assassination? Obviously the obstructions createdby those who don't want these individuals identified, many of whom existed within the system in locked wards, mental institutions and jails, would make this difficult but not impossible.


Clyde Snow already has experiencs in the case and from what I've read about him takes his assignments seriously. In Argentina he had to independently collect the data he used to do his statistical analysis, no one was initially appreciative of what he was trying to do, however it ended up being important evidence taken seriously by the courts. As this case does involve 'unknown' witnesses and 'mysterious' deaths, I offered this thought as one among many avenues to possible serious evidence. Whether anything comes of this suggestion is entirely dependent on someone doing the work. I obviously cannot. If I was in Dallas it would be one thing among many others that I would do. From here I can only suggest. Take it or leave it. Sadly history shows the tendency is to leave it. They are not important people, so anything they may have had to say is not important. These sort of people tend to in public gatherings to 'hide', lurk in the corners and so on, so their perspective as witnesses can be significant

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In the photo (posted by Lee Forman) above in post #3, the car in the parking lot behind unknown witnesses 12 and 13 sure looks like a RAMBLER STATION WAGON. (I should know- I used to own one!)

FWIW, Thomas

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This is new to me. I have not heard before of F.L. Blunt or a reported post office shooter. What is the source on this?

A number of people reported a post office shooter. The early reports were all not investigated satisfactorily. The latter not at all. (except to the extent possible by those interested today)

Firstly, within a very short time of the shooting. This was revealed by Harry Holmes about 25 years after the fact. (I call this the latter report) He stated that initially 'agencies' thought there had been shots fired from the post office. They dealt with this by phoning Harry who quickly 'investigated' and told them it wasn't so. The matter was dropped.

Secondly, a mr FL Blunt rang the FBI in washington shortly after 22/11 and told them that a witness (an inmate on floor 5, which has views on level with the upper levels of the post office.) had reported sucspicious activity on the post office roof. This was investigated internally at the time by the DPD, and when the FBI rang they told them that the investigation showed it was not so. (possibly this investigation was the phone call to Harry)

Thirdly, after the publishing of the WC report, a mr FL Blunt again rang the FBI and repeated his earlier report. This time the FBI themselves investigated and conclude it wasn't so.

Ther are no other mentions of these matters that I've come across. There are no DPD documents in the Dallas data base referring to any of it. The only official documents are a small set of heavily redacted documents in a box of released material not stored with the general group but in a side set that I understand is set aside because of a different classification system.

Following the FBI investigation in late '64, this matter drops out of assassination lore entirely, F.L. Blunt seems untraceable except as per above posts and some genealogy records that are possibly relvant.

An 'unknown witness' of interest IMO.

EDIT from past topic : http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...indpost&p=38132

"There must be a few witnesses within the 'system' who have never been interviewed. Dismissed as loonies before the case. Some might still be living, or have written or said something to someone who is.


edit:: Decker refers to investigation made at time of assassination, but appears to provide no details. Nor are there any records or references in released DPD documents at Dallas City Archives. But it did happen. The reports referred to above are discussed in http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_i...ue/arrb_11.html by Joseph Backes

: "A note of explanation on getting documents from the Archives. Since I last reviewed ARRB document releases and referred to many pages of documents as missing, as well as entire documents missing too, I have received a letter from the National Archives. The documents are not "missing" as such, but are in the JFK Records Collection. They are just not in the ARRB release boxes. I have been concentrating on those documents released by the ARRB as I know they will have the least redactions. The documents released by the ARRB and kept in "ARRB release boxes" are a courtesy for researchers to get in one go the documents being released by the ARRB. At least that is the way it should be, the way I thought it was, but it isn't. This letter states that some documents will not be reproduced in their entirety and kept in the ARRB release boxes." "

I have found this passage regarding F.L. Blunt in “The 11th Batch” (documents released in 1996) edited by Joseph Backes, but it makes no reference to the post office building:



Document # 124-10027-10235 Is a 25 page document from Robert P. Gemberling to SAC, Dallas. It is dated January 1/27/65.

Actually there are only 6 pages here.

There is an index that lists the topics.

One is about an allegation by unknown caller to radio station KTUC, Tucson, Arizona, that a call was received at radio station KWKH, Shreveport, Louisiana, month before assassination stating President Kennedy would be murdered if he came to Texas.

Only the information from Fay Leon Blunt is here.

On December 1, 1964 Fay Leon Blunt, Dallas, Texas, phoned the FBI at Washington, D.C. stating that 17 individuals in the Hospital Ward of the 5th floor of the Dallas County Jail had witnessed the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963; however, Blunt stated that none of these witnesses have ever been interviewed.

The following investigation was conducted by Special Agent Richard J. Burnett.

On December 14, 1964 Sheriff Bill Decker, Dallas County Sheriffs Office, Dallas, Texas advised that thorough investigation was conducted at the Dallas County Jail immediately subsequent to the assassination and no witnesses to same were located among inmates.

Chief Jailer Ernest Lloyd Holman, Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Texas, on December 14, 1964, personally escorted Special Agent Richard J. Burnett through the hospital section of the County Jail on the fifth floor where white inmates with a mental history are confined. The mental inmates are kept in a large tank type cell which has one barred double window overlooking the scene of the assassination. The view from this window would have seen the President at the time of being struck by the assassin's bullets, but the window in the Texas School Book Depository from which the shots were fired is not visible from this cell area.

The hospital section for white prisoners on the fifth floor also has another large cell area in the northwest corner, which has west windows overlooking the site of the President's car at the time of the assassination, and another window on the north side of the building which overlooks the TSBD, including the window from which the shots were fired by the assassin.

However, Chief Jailer Holman advised that this large cell area is used only on weekends by persons serving their three-day sentences for "Driving While Intoxicated" charges and is not occupied until late on Friday nights as Texas law states any part of a day constitutes a full day's credit on drunk sentences. Thus, Holman noted that persons serving such "DWI" sentences report late on Friday's night to gain credit for one full day. Holman further advised that no "DWI" prisoners were in this cell at the time of the assassination.

It is noted that the north corner jail window (which overlooks the TSBD and the window of the TSBD from which assassin's window were fired) is very dirty and is backed by an iron mesh type grid guard. The view from this particular window is very distorted and it is believed by Holman to be impossible to identify anyone from this window, including the President in his car which would have been rounding the corner of Houston onto Elm Street approaching the Triple Underpass seconds before the shooting.

Both Sheriff Decker and Holman pointed out that anyone who would have been confined in the hospital section on the fifth floor of the jail at the time of the assassination would have been a mental case and the reliability of such a person would be highly questionable. Holman noted that it would be a most difficult and time consuming task at this late date to attempt to determine just who was confined in the Hospital Ward at the time of the assassination. Furthermore, Holman pointed out that such persons, if identified, have since been either released or sent to other State mental places of incarceration.

Holman and Chief Identification Officer James H. Kitching advised that Fay Leon Blunt (complainant in this matter) is well-known to them as a person completely unreliable who has been arrested on several occasions in the past on lunacy charges. Both stated they would place no confidence whatsoever in any information furnished by him. Kitching pulled Blunt's arrest record and noted that Blunt was not incarcerated in the Dallas county Jail at the time of the assassination.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...ue/arrb_11.html

Ron, thank you for forcing me to check my memory on this. There were actually then 4 instances of reports not three. on the day, people on floor to blunt, blunt to fbi (2x), Holmes 25 years after fact.


Document # 124-10058-10042 Is a two page document from T. J. McAndrew to Evans. It is dated 12/11/64. It is about Fay Leon Blunt.

At 12:20 A.M., 12-11-63 Blunt made a person to person call from Dallas, Texas, to Mr. DeLoach and was referred to SA Arthur R. Ware, Night Supervisor, Special Investigative Division.

Blunt stated he had information that 17 individuals, wardens and inmates, were in the hospital ward on the fifth floor of the Dallas County Jail and from there witnessed the assassination of former President Kennedy. He alleged that none of these individuals have been interviewed on this matter. Blunt said that their information would indicate a search should be made of the top of the Dallas Post Office building.

Bureau files show Blunt was a potential security informant, Dallas Office, on racial matters from 1-15-58 to 3-27-58. He was discontinued when he made inflammatory remarks re integration on a radio program. He was arrested in Arkansas in 1959 for drunk and disorderly and carrying concealed weapon (gun). In 1959 and 1960 he made several telephone calls to Mr. DeLoach, sometimes while under the influence of liquor, and frequently made exaggerated and false claims about his association with the Bureau.

John,

Thanks for finding Blunt's reference to the post office building. If there was indeed a shooter on the roof of that building, he apparently didn't shoot, and perhaps was there to shoot only if JFK was still alive when approaching the underpass.

It also may have been a primary shooting position if the other location for the luncheon had been chosen, in which case the motorcade would have been going east on Main, and a patsy on the north side of the plaza would have then been in order.

Ron

Harry in the mid 80's referred to it as 'shots'. I'm interpreting the source of this witness report as being the source for Blunt. Thus I'm suggesting it is reasonable to conclude that this report in the redacted documents is about shots.

It strikes me as a reasonable way of interpreting the reports (timeline)

around 12.30 : Witnessing of shots from post office

'Agencies' alerted of report of shots from post office.

'Agencies' alert to report of shots from post office results in someone ringing Harry who tells 'them' 'negative'.

Witnesses tell Blunt sometime between 22/11 and 11/12 who then rings FBI. (presumably he would now be aware that the DPD did nothing about it so he rings FBI)

FBI ring DPD who tells 'nagative'.

......Presumably Blunt now waits till the WC report, believing it will be dealt with.

WC report: no mention.

Blunt rings FBI who this time does an investigation.

Investigation : 'negative'. No more is heard of it or of Blunt.

25 years later or so, Harry tells of the initial reports.

10 years after Harry revealing this, redacted documents released.

...and that's it.

Where did the bullets go?

Ah well, that's a good question.

Some thoughts as to possibilities:

*Kennedy's head

*Furrow in grass that roughly line up

*Harry went walkabout after the shooting and did a curious thing : he picked up a piece of bone and threw it back down and kept wandering about (this is strange as he was a dental student and presumably therefore familiar with bodyparts (students work on corpses) so he should have realised it was significant : looking for something else perhaps?

*As the direction was not in consideration at the time or since perhaps a metal detector over the area in front of Zapruder would show.

*If it is true then it is important and therefore bullets picked up, and now theyr'e? : who knows... Fragments in car? buried in ground? souvenire? ???

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A PM from Gary:

"Post office employee Jesse C. Price was on the roof of the Terminal Annex watching the parade. He appears in Lane's Rush To Judgment book and film and he was interviewed by investigators at the time. No shots came from the roof."

(Price also appears in JFK and a nice view of the assassination area from the PO annexe is given.)

I understand that this is what Price (and Harry) said. Whether that is sufficient reason to conclude that no shots came from there is another question entirely.

I don't think so.
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In another thread a 'phenomenon' was described:

Apparently it is known that a long range sniper is aided by a fact that the target will because of different arrival times of sounds a shot will be percieved as coming from the opposite direction to what it actually came from.

Part of this discussion and many other ballistics questions have been covered by Gerry and Al in this thread : http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5308

A sample:

"Gerry: ...Especially in the case of Marine recruits, their first experience at seemingly getting "shot at' is when working the "Butts". These are the pits where guys and gals raise and lower the large wooden framed target holders. They stand and look up awaiting the appearance of a hole in their target.

It sometimes takes 15 minutes of slow fire [500 yards range] before the "Butt" troops learn that the sonic crack belongs to their target, and not the one on either side. Before that, a Sergeant running the Butts and manning a field telephone will be heard screaming "...pull the goddamn target on # 12, etc. !!"

Lo and befold, the recruit notices a little hole in the large paper target, inserts a 5 inch disc with a wooden peg through its center -- into the hole. The "Boot" now runs the target back up, and if the now marked hole is inside the target perimeter, raises a green disc on a long pole and centers it over the marking disc. That way, a shooter, even without a spotter scope can see whether he/she got a 5V or 5 "bullseye" or lesser scored shot -- which is then noted in the shooter's log book.

[The first page of the log book gives the initial "Zero" of the weapon, that is: when it was first fired while "sighting-in"; but sometimes the "zero" (measured in clicks of elevation and windage at 300 yards) will change as the "cheek weld", eye distance, etc. factors change over time, even with the same weapon during the same week. Sometimes the loss of body fat or dehydration will cause the shooter to inadvertently change his firing "lock" or stance.]..."

"Al: ...Where many seem to misunderstand in the DP Shooting of JFK is that they see the shot as being fairly simple due to range from origin to target. What most fail to understand, as they cannot put themselves in the shooters place, is that the shot(s) were at a higher level of difficulty due to the fact that it was on a moving target that varied in angle, speed and elevation. If you put the latter into perspective with close range, it becomes even more difficult on shot origins such as the north knoll when the angle is extreme, or the TSBD when the elevation factor becomes a hurdle for even accomplished shooters.

Then we are dealing with factors in this thread that deal with shot origin concealment such as suppressors and subsonic ammunition. A suppressor will conceal the shot of a rifle or pistol caliber projectile quite well with a closed chamber weapon such as a bolt action rifle or revolver handgun. If the projectile is above the range of 900fps, it does nothing to suppress the shockwave of the bullet in flight. Then we have to deal with subsonic ammunition. When viewing the head wound, subsonic ammunition is not acceptable for this incident, as the impact shows a much higher velocity projectile upon impact and through the wound channel. To believe shooters would compromise their accuracy rate to shoot something in the range of less than 900fps at the president, is rediculous. Even utilization of suppressors for what is would be worth would compromise the flight trajectory of the bullet as it does slow it down. The shooter would have to train with the suppressor in order to make his shot of point of aim to point of impact. With the moving target and varying speeds and elevation, a shot off by a few inches could produce failure.

To be realistic about how such a triangulation of fire was covered up, it is much more realistic to believe that the shooters fired in concert by keying off the original shot origin (TSBD), which would be difficult for even experienced ear witnesses to pick out the follow-up shots. I have referred to this time and again here and on Lancer as a "Canyon Shoot" procedure that was and is trained by the military, dating back now some sixty-plus years. It deals with the follow-up shots being keyed by a startle reaction from the other shooters. It gives away the original position and covers the others, leaving the primary positions unexposed and confusion as to the number of shots."
My work on the autopsy imagery so far inclines me to take Als work on a shooter location particularly seriously (this is not to discount all the other excellent material available)
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In an other thread it was shown how the quarter round structures north and south on Dealey Plaza can act as sound magnifiers and amplify a weaker sound to a sonic crack that is louder than other sounds. In this way also a shot from the south could be heard by some, standing south of the northern structure, as coming from the north.

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Anyway, the point of all that is that there is an argument that all the witnesses giving the Grassy Knoll as origin could be seen as witnesses for a southern origin.

topical bump ( http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=71605 )

Lee Forman and the croft witnesses http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ost&p=39778

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update:: the Bell film has been found to show a view from Harry's office. This view right at the end of the film (as available) finishes with a view of the Dallas Court building. It appears to be a couple of people in the windows there looking towards the post office. These could be the witnesses of shots from the post office.
Click to view attachment
The Paschall film also shows this from another angle.

"Clyde Snow, forensic anthropologist, when helping to train investigators following the fall of the Generals in Argentina, used a statistical technique developed by himself that was later used to help convict perpetrators of the Disappeared.

One problem they had was locating the graves. The bodies were usually logged as 'unknown'. So he compiled a list of all unknowns over a period extending pre and post Junta. Then by checking the frquency against an average he could pinpoint cemeteries to check. In this way he was also able to crossreference torture centers and other localities involved in the disposal of human beings.

I wonder if anyone has done a similar study of the U.S. equivalent of the 'unknown', John and Jane Doe, in the Dallas area in the period following the assassination? Obviously the obstructions created by those who don't want these individuals identified, many of whom existed within the system in locked wards, mental institutions and jails, would make this difficult but not impossible."

I suppose it's not easy for those who are not fully aware of what sort of place the Deep South could be in those days to believe that the action suggested above could happen. Also, there would be a reluctance to embrace it as a part of the USA history of the country of the Brave and the Free.

It happened.
Mississippi 3, 1964

Medical Examiners, Judge Cox, police, the KKK and ordinary folk all conspired to hide the truth.
http://orig.clarionledger.com/news/0006/04/04miburn.html

During the search for the bodies, many other bodies and body parts were found of individuals (black) unidentified to this day.

It was not unusual for a black person with a gunshot wound to be signed off as a heart attack. The system, including law enforcement, medical and legal, was set up after years of segregation to hide the actions of those who struggled to preserve the status quo. This is an important thing to keep in mind with regards to the JFK killing.