"(Joshia) Thompson: And then you watched the ... then after the head shot, the car disappeared under the underpass?
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove."
this is all a bit disjointed.
Is a better knowledge of MS post assassination movements available?
___________________
Could this be Sitzman?
Click to view attachment
Left posted by Bill in other thread
Right from Bell Film
Full Version: Marilyn Sitzmans post assassination movements
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Aug 4 2006, 03:15 PM) 
"(Joshia) Thompson: And then you watched the ... then after the head shot, the car disappeared under the underpass?
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove."
this is all a bit disjointed.
Is a better knowledge of MS post assassination movements available?
___________________
Could this be Sitzman?
Click to view attachment
Left posted by Bill in other thread
Right from Bell Film
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove."
this is all a bit disjointed.
Is a better knowledge of MS post assassination movements available?
___________________
Could this be Sitzman?
Click to view attachment
Left posted by Bill in other thread
Right from Bell Film
On the subject of Marilyn Sitzman, does anyone know about a hypnosis session she allegedly had with a Dr. Mike Stower?
bump
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Aug 4 2006, 03:15 PM)
"(Joshia) Thompson: And then you watched the ... then after the head shot, the car disappeared under the underpass?
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove."
this is all a bit disjointed.
Is a better knowledge of MS post assassination movements available?
___________________
Could this be Sitzman?
Click to view attachment
Left posted by Bill in other thread
Right from Bell Film
Sitzman: Uh huh. And I got off the concrete slab we were standing on, and I ran down the hill, and I met some men from across the street, and I took it for granted that they were Secret Service or CIA or something like that; and they asked me what happened, and I said, "they killed him." And I walked back up the hill, and I talked to an FBI man up there that did identify himself to me, but I don't recall his name, and then I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside.
Thompson: Inside the alcove.
Sitzman: And I looked out the back. Everybody was running back that way. Everybody ran up the hill and back and looked out that way.
Thompson: And where did they run? Did they run back into the railroad yard or into the parking lot?
Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove."
this is all a bit disjointed.
Is a better knowledge of MS post assassination movements available?
___________________
Could this be Sitzman?
Click to view attachment
Left posted by Bill in other thread
Right from Bell Film
apparent sequence
I got off the concrete slab we were standing on
I ran down the hill
I met some men from across the street
I walked back up the hill
I talked to an FBI man up there
I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside
I looked out the back
I finally got back up to the alcove
what bell film shows
got off the concrete slab
made to follow zapruder who set off east
turned and moved towards the alcove
almost reached it, paused to look south
combined
got off the concrete slab
made to follow zapruder who set off east
turned and moved towards the alcove
almost reached it, paused to look south
ran down the hill
met some men(suits) from across the street
walked back up the hill
talked to an FBI man up there
walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside
looked out the back
finally got back up to the alcove
an attempt at sorting it out
got off the concrete slab
made to follow zapruder who set off east
turned and moved towards the alcove
almost reached it, paused to look south
went south
???
finally got back (north) up to the alcove and looked out the back
??? + the woman and the police with radio and long coat that walks towards Bell, with the police walking up to Bells immediate right, then the next sequence of the Bell film is bewing filmed from what very much seems to be Harry's office window.
speculation::
she turns to see who called out to her, it is the someone she describes as the men who looked like SS or CIA.
She went across the street and continued 'up' to Harrys office. under police escort to Harry's office. On the way, the policeman is further given instructions over radio to bring Bell with him as well.
Harry in his FBI informer persona, gets the low-down on the Zfilm. She returns "finally" to the alcove.
____________________________________________________________
What I'm looking for is clear indications that this interpretation is incorrect.
is it Sitzman? the distant Sitzman is too unclear in the Bell version I have to be able to say one way or another. A good color photo of Sitzman showing clothing details would be good.
could it be Sitzman? does the other statements by her of what people were doing indicate the timing of what she was doing. Is there enough time for her to do what is suggested?
Click to view attachment
if so further speculations:: she was delivering the Zcamera to Harry (and Sorrels), her evasiveness means she knows more than what she is saying.
Taking it further:: Harry saw the people taking films and issued instructions to bring them to him. Nix is also of interest here as apparently he worked in the PO building (maintenace)
So (again speculations) Harry handled not only the ZFilm (see Harry and the Zfilm topic) but also directed and handled the Bell film and the Nix as well.
Hence my interest in her movements and if the two women are the same.
Irrespective of whether they are or not, the Bell film sequence re police and radio and filming from Harry's office is most curious.
I think that's a reasonable position to take, Robin.
Unfortunately the images are still not conclusive. A better one of Sitzman could be though.
Similarly it doesn't mean the woman in the shelter is not the woman walking south.
I think I can see the woman walking south wearing something that looks like a largish necklace.
____
this image has some color 'corrections' like histogram equalisation and gamma shifts applied equally to both.
Click to view attachment
I can't say yes or no to whether it is all Sitzman (or any of it is for that matter) . Based on what is available so far I don't think anything bar an expression of belief is possible.
I believe it could be her, I also believe it may not be.
Unfortunately the images are still not conclusive. A better one of Sitzman could be though.
Similarly it doesn't mean the woman in the shelter is not the woman walking south.
I think I can see the woman walking south wearing something that looks like a largish necklace.
____
this image has some color 'corrections' like histogram equalisation and gamma shifts applied equally to both.
Click to view attachment
I can't say yes or no to whether it is all Sitzman (or any of it is for that matter) . Based on what is available so far I don't think anything bar an expression of belief is possible.
I believe it could be her, I also believe it may not be.
John...see attached.
Jack
Jack
'Robin Unger' wrote:
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry
!
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry
!
'Robin Unger' wrote:
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry !
Yep, David, that's it. One can only assume, and thats not good enough. I think the closeup of the woman walking south is good enough to use as a starting point. A comparable one of Sitzman from the front taken on the day is needed.
____
Thank you Jack. Is that photo taken on the day? If so and if the film and that photo represent the colors the same way in the same lighting conditions then I'd be inclined to shift towards the view that the woman walking south and Sitzman are not the same person. From your other posts on Sitzmans dress, different conditions make things look different and Sitzman in the distance in the Bell film is much more like the woman walking south
The woman in the alcove could be either. Going by color she looks more like the woman walking south.
So, unfortunately, still not conclusive IMO.
Is a photo of Sitzman from the front available?
While the woman being Sitzman would raise the stakes considerably, the woman walking south and the policeman with the radio, and Harry and the Bell film is still an issue. We 'know' Harry handled the Zfilm with Sorrels on the 22'nd. Here he is shown to have a hand in the Bell film as well. (And Nix worked in the PO as well.)
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry
!Yep, David, that's it. One can only assume, and thats not good enough. I think the closeup of the woman walking south is good enough to use as a starting point. A comparable one of Sitzman from the front taken on the day is needed.
____
Thank you Jack. Is that photo taken on the day? If so and if the film and that photo represent the colors the same way in the same lighting conditions then I'd be inclined to shift towards the view that the woman walking south and Sitzman are not the same person. From your other posts on Sitzmans dress, different conditions make things look different and Sitzman in the distance in the Bell film is much more like the woman walking south
The woman in the alcove could be either. Going by color she looks more like the woman walking south.
So, unfortunately, still not conclusive IMO.
Is a photo of Sitzman from the front available?
While the woman being Sitzman would raise the stakes considerably, the woman walking south and the policeman with the radio, and Harry and the Bell film is still an issue. We 'know' Harry handled the Zfilm with Sorrels on the 22'nd. Here he is shown to have a hand in the Bell film as well. (And Nix worked in the PO as well.)
QUOTE (Robin Unger @ Aug 5 2006, 02:13 PM)
Sitzman in the shelter.
You are correct, Robin ... just as Jack is correct about the lack of sleeves Sitzman's outfit had. The black head scarf as Jack pointed out is also another factor. Also, Sitzman's dress was shorter and if what we see in the Betzner photo is correct - Sitzman's dress had large noticeable buttons up the front of it.
It appears that John's gamma test is not a reliable method for matching up images in photos.
Bill Miller
QUOTE (John Dolva @ Aug 5 2006, 08:46 PM)
'Robin Unger' wrote:
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry !
Yep, David, that's it. One can only assume, and thats not good enough. I think the closeup of the woman walking south is good enough to use as a starting point. A comparable one of Sitzman from the front taken on the day is needed.
____
Thank you Jack. Is that photo taken on the day? If so and if the film and that photo represent the colors the same way in the same lighting conditions then I'd be inclined to shift towards the view that the woman walking south and Sitzman are not the same person. From your other posts on Sitzmans dress, different conditions make things look different and Sitzman in the distance in the Bell film is much more like the woman walking south
The woman in the alcove could be either. Going by color she looks more like the woman walking south.
So, unfortunately, still not conclusive IMO.
Is a photo of Sitzman from the front available?
While the woman being Sitzman would raise the stakes considerably, the woman walking south and the policeman with the radio, and Harry and the Bell film is still an issue. We 'know' Harry handled the Zfilm with Sorrels on the 22'nd. Here he is shown to have a hand in the Bell film as well. (And Nix worked in the PO as well.)
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry
!Yep, David, that's it. One can only assume, and thats not good enough. I think the closeup of the woman walking south is good enough to use as a starting point. A comparable one of Sitzman from the front taken on the day is needed.
____
Thank you Jack. Is that photo taken on the day? If so and if the film and that photo represent the colors the same way in the same lighting conditions then I'd be inclined to shift towards the view that the woman walking south and Sitzman are not the same person. From your other posts on Sitzmans dress, different conditions make things look different and Sitzman in the distance in the Bell film is much more like the woman walking south
The woman in the alcove could be either. Going by color she looks more like the woman walking south.
So, unfortunately, still not conclusive IMO.
Is a photo of Sitzman from the front available?
While the woman being Sitzman would raise the stakes considerably, the woman walking south and the policeman with the radio, and Harry and the Bell film is still an issue. We 'know' Harry handled the Zfilm with Sorrels on the 22'nd. Here he is shown to have a hand in the Bell film as well. (And Nix worked in the PO as well.)
Sitz from front in Zfilm.
Jack
Thank you Jack (thanks to everyone contributing.) I'm inclined, based on that to say it is not Sitzman. Of course one cannot say the woman in the shelter is either. It is easier to view what's available and say it's Sitzman. But that involves a measure of faith.
Where can one view the rest of the ZFilm that the Sitzman image is from?
___________
Back to the radio,Bell,Harry sequence.
Who is the woman walking south? I know Harry said one of his secretaries was close to the headshot. She has not been identified before.
Who is the policeman? Are any other photos of a policeman with a long coat in DP available?
The badge on his cap? I know there are devoted police badge collectors. I'll try to contact one to see if something is knowable there.
Where can one view the rest of the ZFilm that the Sitzman image is from?
___________
Back to the radio,Bell,Harry sequence.
Who is the woman walking south? I know Harry said one of his secretaries was close to the headshot. She has not been identified before.
Who is the policeman? Are any other photos of a policeman with a long coat in DP available?
The badge on his cap? I know there are devoted police badge collectors. I'll try to contact one to see if something is knowable there.
QUOTE
Thank you Jack (thanks to everyone contributing.) I'm inclined, based on that to say it is not Sitzman. Of course one cannot say the woman in the shelter is either. It is easier to view what's available and say it's Sitzman. But that involves a measure of faith.
John, from one poor quality image of a woman entering the shadows of the shelter doesn't mean much, but when someone who knows how to investigate this matter actually watches this woman and Zapruder get off the pedestal - have their backs photographed by James Altgens as they have just stepped onto the ground next to the pedestal, and while another film photographer picks up this woman walking into the shelter wearing the same clothing Sitzman wore - how much faith is needed at that point?
Bill Miller
Bill, presumably you are meaning Bell? If so it doesn't film her walking into the shelter. It shows her going towards it then turning to look back.
and then she herself says:
I got off the concrete slab we were standing on
I ran down the hill
I met some men from across the street
I walked back up the hill
I talked to an FBI man up there
I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside
I looked out the back
I finally got back up to the alcove
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
and then she herself says:
I got off the concrete slab we were standing on
I ran down the hill
I met some men from across the street
I walked back up the hill
I talked to an FBI man up there
I walked back behind the marble thing there, not behind it, but back inside
I looked out the back
I finally got back up to the alcove
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
QUOTE (David G. Healy @ Aug 6 2006, 05:51 AM)
'Robin Unger' wrote:
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry !
Sitzman in the shelter.
************
yep, I'd recognize her, anywhere...., Sorry
!I base my assumption, and it is only an assumption, that she walked into the shelter from this point.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
This frame was taken from the lead in at the start of Zapruders film roll.
It is on Grodens "jfk Assassination Films" DVD
The frame shows "Sitzman and the Hesters" at the NORTH end of the pergola.
Click to view attachment
It is on Grodens "jfk Assassination Films" DVD
The frame shows "Sitzman and the Hesters" at the NORTH end of the pergola.
Click to view attachment
Thank you very much for taking the time to contribute that Robin.
OK, I'm in agreement re the woman walking south and Sitzman likely being different people.
The woman in the shelter may or may not be Sitzman or the other woman. It's probably reasonable to assume it's Sitzman. Sitzmans interview with Joshia is still not clear. It seems unnecessarily obscure. Still, unless something else comes up regarding that, I'll leave it for now.
________
the policeman with the radio / Bell / to Harrys office is another issue.
OK, I'm in agreement re the woman walking south and Sitzman likely being different people.
The woman in the shelter may or may not be Sitzman or the other woman. It's probably reasonable to assume it's Sitzman. Sitzmans interview with Joshia is still not clear. It seems unnecessarily obscure. Still, unless something else comes up regarding that, I'll leave it for now.
________
the policeman with the radio / Bell / to Harrys office is another issue.
[code]
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
[/quote]
Well, John ... if you find another woman in or around the plaza that wore a black scarf around her head and was near the pedestal - let me know.
Bill
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
[/quote]
Well, John ... if you find another woman in or around the plaza that wore a black scarf around her head and was near the pedestal - let me know.
Bill
[quote name='Bill Miller' date='Aug 6 2006, 10:01 PM' post='71576']
[code]
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
[/quote]
Well, John ... if you find another woman in or around the plaza that wore a black scarf around her head and was near the pedestal - let me know.
Bill
[/quote]
Your'e playing sillybuggers Bill. I knopw you can read and reason.
[code]
You alone are turning that into her walking into thew shelter at that time, which is understandable, but involves a measure of faith that it then is her shown in that particular Bond photo. I'm hoping for something more certain than your or anyone elses statement of belief about it.
[/quote]
Well, John ... if you find another woman in or around the plaza that wore a black scarf around her head and was near the pedestal - let me know.
Bill
[/quote]
Your'e playing sillybuggers Bill. I knopw you can read and reason.
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